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Re: [XTalk] Jesus was neither Jewish nor Christian

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  • sdavies0
    ... I ve just read through April s recent postings and she says this: Whether Jesus was a Galilean or a Judean can be an interesting erudite discussion, but
    Message 1 of 32 , Sep 12, 2007
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      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Loren Rosson <rossoiii@...> wrote:
      > Yes, I see. April DeConick had a strong reaction to
      > Elliott's essay today on her blog, and I can't help
      > but think that we come to rely on certain terminology
      > as a crutch to protect us from phantom fears, or that
      > we're fighting lost battles, however subconsciously.

      I've just read through April's recent postings and she says this:

      "Whether Jesus was a Galilean or a Judean can be an interesting
      erudite discussion, but it means nothing in regard to whether or not
      Jesus was Jewish by our conventional definition of that term. Like
      his brothers and sister Jews who lived in the south, Jesus was a
      Torah-observant, Temple-oriented, apocalyptic teacher who felt very
      strongly that God's covenantal promises would be fulfilled in
      Israel. He kept Sabbath, celebrated the festivals, was kosher, and
      worshiped Yahweh. I think that it is time for us to face up
      to Jesus' Jewishness, and ask ourselves why the some in the academy
      (which many of us are a part of) continue to want to deny, ignore or
      get around this."

      This sort of thing is just what I try to argue against. It's as
      though she had never seen a map showing the location of Galilee vis
      a vis Samaria and Judea and had no idea about the history of the
      place. But surely she does. Knowing that, though, she declares that
      it doesn't matter.

      Note that her description of Jesus as a Torah-observant, Temple-
      oriented Sabbath-keeping Jew is supposedly so obvious that anyone
      who might deny it must have their motivations questioned. "Why do
      some continue to want to deny this!?" Has she never read Mark's
      gospel? She's read Thomas for sure, but dismisses the evidence there
      against her own views without any trouble.

      The fact that Jesus is Galilean should enable us to select from the
      welter of contradictory evidence the more reliable bits. Instead, we
      select bits that are intended to show that his being Galilean is
      irrelevant.

      Is it that she doesn't know that Matthew's Gospel is a version of
      Mark re-written to give us the view of Jesus that she supports? Or
      that Paul first persecuted, as a Pharisee, the movement that he
      later joined, a movement that is not Torah-observant, Temple-
      oriented, Sabbath-keeping until false brothers crept in to make it
      so? (This is my eyewitness's testimony anyhow).

      "He made all foods clean." "You have made my Father's house a
      robber's cave." "The son of man is Lord of the Sabbath."

      But I suppose even thinking these sorts of things makes me one of
      the Nazis.

      >>But you don't really
      >>think I -- not to mention Elliott, Esler, Malina --
      >>are unwitting Nazis, do you?

      >No I certainly don't. Well, not you and Malina
      anyway.

      Steve Davies
    • sdavies0
      ... I ve just read through April s recent postings and she says this: Whether Jesus was a Galilean or a Judean can be an interesting erudite discussion, but
      Message 32 of 32 , Sep 12, 2007
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        --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Loren Rosson <rossoiii@...> wrote:
        > Yes, I see. April DeConick had a strong reaction to
        > Elliott's essay today on her blog, and I can't help
        > but think that we come to rely on certain terminology
        > as a crutch to protect us from phantom fears, or that
        > we're fighting lost battles, however subconsciously.

        I've just read through April's recent postings and she says this:

        "Whether Jesus was a Galilean or a Judean can be an interesting
        erudite discussion, but it means nothing in regard to whether or not
        Jesus was Jewish by our conventional definition of that term. Like
        his brothers and sister Jews who lived in the south, Jesus was a
        Torah-observant, Temple-oriented, apocalyptic teacher who felt very
        strongly that God's covenantal promises would be fulfilled in
        Israel. He kept Sabbath, celebrated the festivals, was kosher, and
        worshiped Yahweh. I think that it is time for us to face up
        to Jesus' Jewishness, and ask ourselves why the some in the academy
        (which many of us are a part of) continue to want to deny, ignore or
        get around this."

        This sort of thing is just what I try to argue against. It's as
        though she had never seen a map showing the location of Galilee vis
        a vis Samaria and Judea and had no idea about the history of the
        place. But surely she does. Knowing that, though, she declares that
        it doesn't matter.

        Note that her description of Jesus as a Torah-observant, Temple-
        oriented Sabbath-keeping Jew is supposedly so obvious that anyone
        who might deny it must have their motivations questioned. "Why do
        some continue to want to deny this!?" Has she never read Mark's
        gospel? She's read Thomas for sure, but dismisses the evidence there
        against her own views without any trouble.

        The fact that Jesus is Galilean should enable us to select from the
        welter of contradictory evidence the more reliable bits. Instead, we
        select bits that are intended to show that his being Galilean is
        irrelevant.

        Is it that she doesn't know that Matthew's Gospel is a version of
        Mark re-written to give us the view of Jesus that she supports? Or
        that Paul first persecuted, as a Pharisee, the movement that he
        later joined, a movement that is not Torah-observant, Temple-
        oriented, Sabbath-keeping until false brothers crept in to make it
        so? (This is my eyewitness's testimony anyhow).

        "He made all foods clean." "You have made my Father's house a
        robber's cave." "The son of man is Lord of the Sabbath."

        But I suppose even thinking these sorts of things makes me one of
        the Nazis.

        >>But you don't really
        >>think I -- not to mention Elliott, Esler, Malina --
        >>are unwitting Nazis, do you?

        >No I certainly don't. Well, not you and Malina
        anyway.

        Steve Davies
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