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Noll Re: FW: [XTalk] The Mutilation of Mark's Gospel

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  • Bob Schacht
    At 02:04 PM 7/20/2007, K L Noll wrote: [snip] ... I really like this suggestion. The emphasis on J the B in the gospels seems incompletely explained, and we
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 21, 2007
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      At 02:04 PM 7/20/2007, K L Noll wrote:

      [snip]

      >Having said all this ..., I still have not yet bought Croy's
      >hypothesis. So I have a question: Croy says that the missing part
      >of Mark's beginning must not have included a birth narrative. Croy
      >says this because Croy believes that Mark 1:9 seems to introduce
      >Jesus for the first time. So, in Croy's view, the missing part
      >would have been a more complete description of John the Baptist.

      I really like this suggestion. The emphasis on J the B in the gospels
      seems incompletely explained, and we know from Paul's letters that
      Paul encountered disciples of J the B on his missionary journeys. Of
      course, this material could later have become controversial, and may
      have been removed by the keeper of the document on purpose. But that
      is merely speculation piled upon conjecture. Nevertheless, a very
      intriguing sub-hypothesis that Croy proposes.

      > Likewise, I suggested in an earlier post that the logic of Mark's
      > narrative demands that no resurrection-appearance story be
      > narrated. Mark introduced the narrative device of an Announcer,
      > which is utterly unnecessary if Jesus shows up later (the
      > awkwardness of Matthew 28:9-10 is an example). So my question
      > is: Just how long would these missing beginning-and-ending have
      > been? Has anyone ever done research to determine the average
      > number of Greek letters that would have been contained on a page of
      > a codex from the early Christian centuries? If, as Croy believes,
      > the outer page, front and back, has been lost, then how much text
      > can we hypothesize to have been lost? ...

      These are not the right questions. The reason is shown by P45 (or am
      I confusing P45 with P66?), which is the earliest collection of
      Paul's letters. That Codex is useful because it shows that the scribe
      realized at some point into his copying that he had more material
      than he had space, if he continued to write with the same line
      spacing and character size, so the letters become smaller and smaller
      in the second half of the manuscript, and the line spacing grows
      tighter and tighter. A better question might be how many pages of
      papyrus were needed in the earliest complete copies of Matthew, Luke
      and John? Another better question would be to look at the surviving
      codices from the standpoint of physical production, i.e., some
      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codicology>Codicology. A fundamental
      unit of the codex was a quire ("four"):
      4 sheets of papyrus of the same size were piled up, and then folded
      once, and then sewn at the fold. For example, see

      <http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=5&oi=define&q=http://www.slais.ubc.ca/people/students/student-projects/M_Chesko/L513/definitions.htm&usg=AFQjCNGPRkuJd-EZIAyFVF3G5B8_OD4vLg>www.slais.ubc.ca/people/students/student-projects/M_Chesko/L513/definitions.htm

      > * Quire: A gathering of usually two or more BIFOLIA (or
      > combination of bifolia and singletons) inserted into one another
      > and sewn together through the fold. One or more quires sewn
      > together may comprise a CODEX.
      or
      > * A quire was originally an unfolded stack of 4 sheets of
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vellum>vellum or
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment>parchment, which (depending
      > on the method used) would form an 8- or 16-page booklet when
      > stitched and folded. Back then, the terms
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion_%28disambiguation%29>quaternion
      > or quaternum were more commonly used.
      > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_quire#Quire)

      Per the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex>wikipedia:
      >The first recorded use of the codex for literary works dates from
      >the late <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_century>first century
      >AD, when <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial>Martial experimented
      >with the format. . . .
      >The earliest surviving fragments from codices come from Egypt and
      >are variously dated (always tentatively) towards the end of the 1st
      >century or in the first half of the 2nd. This group includes the
      ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52>Rylands
      >Library Papyrus P52, containing part of St John's Gospel, and
      >perhaps dating from between 125 and
      >160.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex#_note-1>[2]

      You might also want to consult

      <http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/journals/kraftpub/Christianity/Canon>"The
      Codex and Canon Consciousness" (Draft), by Robert A. Kraft [updated
      to 15 October 2000]

      But these sources don't answer your question completely. I'm sure
      that others must have better information.

      Bob Schacht
      University of Hawaii



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    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... That would be P46. Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson, mailto:scarlson@mindspring.com Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words.
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 22, 2007
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        Bob Schacht wrote on Jul 22, 2007 1:01 AM:
        >The reason is shown by P45 (or am
        >I confusing P45 with P66?), which is the earliest collection of
        >Paul's letters.

        That would be P46.

        Stephen Carlson

        --
        Stephen C. Carlson,
        mailto:scarlson@...
        "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
      • Bob Schacht
        ... Stephen, Thanks for the correction. I m traveling, and don t have my notes. And a quick Google didn t rescue my mistake. Bob Schacht University of Hawaii
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 22, 2007
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          At 08:24 AM 7/22/2007, you wrote:
          >Bob Schacht wrote on Jul 22, 2007 1:01 AM:
          > >The reason is shown by P45 (or am
          > >I confusing P45 with P66?), which is the earliest collection of
          > >Paul's letters.
          >
          >That would be P46.

          Stephen,
          Thanks for the correction. I'm traveling, and don't have my notes.
          And a quick Google didn't rescue my mistake.

          Bob Schacht
          University of Hawaii


          >Stephen Carlson
          >
          >--
          >Stephen C. Carlson,
          >mailto:scarlson@...
          >"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
          >
          >
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        • K L Noll
          Bob, Many thanks for your correction and improvement of my question. I will pursue this. I will be grateful for any additional guidance from listers as well.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 22, 2007
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            Bob,

            Many thanks for your correction and improvement of my question. I will pursue this. I will be grateful for any additional guidance from listers as well.

            Shalom,
            Kurt L. Noll
            Brandon University
            Brandon, Manitoba
            nollk@...
            klnoll@...


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