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RE: [XTalk] Passover and Sabbaths

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    ... I recall reading somewhere -- perhaps in Hengel -- that by the first century CE, the rabbis had come to see the Passover Lamb as a sacrificial lamb.
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 23, 2007
      Mark Matson wrote:

      >>One note, however, for those that want to see John's chronology as necessarily cooked theologically based on John the Baptist's statement: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" -- that is that the Passover lamb is NOT an sin or guilt sacrifice, but is instead a festival offering. Perhaps this is why John never makes a big deal about the coincidence of the timing of Jesus' death -- it only confuses things with respect to understanding Jesus' death.<<

      I recall reading somewhere -- perhaps in Hengel -- that by the first century CE, the rabbis had come to see the Passover Lamb as a sacrificial lamb.

      Perhaps someone else recalls more on this point.

      Jeffery Hodges


      University Degrees:

      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

      Email Address:

      jefferyhodges@...

      Blog:

      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

      Office Address:

      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Department of English Language and Literature
      Korea University
      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
      Seoul
      South Korea

      Home Address:

      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
      Sinnae-dong 795
      Jungrang-gu
      Seoul 131-770
      South Korea

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Zeba Crook
      Dear Ken, Thank you for this. I m never ashamed to admit how much I learn on this list. You can read and read something, and never slow down to read it
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 23, 2007
        Dear Ken,

        Thank you for this. I'm never ashamed to admit how much I learn on
        this list. You can read and read something, and never slow down to
        read it really closely.

        Zeb


        Ken Olson wrote:


        >Zeb,
        >
        >Pardon my continued interference, but this is the question I was trying
        to
        >answer in my previous post.
        >
        >>>In John Jesus is killed on the afternoon before PAssover starts (with
        >all the other Lambs of God), and in the Synoptics he's killed in the
        >afternoon of Passover proper. That's 24 hours difference. I don't get
        >how you're saying here and in your previous post (if I'm understanding
        >correctly) that there's no difference in the day of the week of death<<
        >
        >Perhaps I'm missing what you're getting at, but it seems to me (and I
        >believe to many others) that the disagreement between John and the
        Synoptics
        >is on what day of the week Passover fell, not on what day of the week
        Jesus
        >was crucified. They all have Jesus crucified on the Day of Preparation
        for
        >the Sabbath (i.e., Friday), but they disagree about whether Passover
        was the
        >prior evening (Thursday night in the Synoptics) or the evening
        immediately
        >following the crucifixion (Friday night, on the Sabbath itself, in
        John). I
        >suspect part of the problem is that our days of the week don't
        correspond
        >very well to the presumed Jewish reckoning. Let me take another shot
        at
        >this:
        >
        >1) The Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening.
        >
        >2) The Day of Preparation for the Sabbath is Thursday evening to Friday
        >evening (i.e., when the Sabbath begins).
        >
        >3) All four gospels have Jesus die on the Day of Preparation (for the
        >Sabbath) and he is hurriedly buried as the Sabbath is beginning/about
        to
        >begin. This is what we call Friday day.
        >
        >However:
        >
        >In the Synoptics, Jesus has already celebrated Passover with his
        disciples,
        >presumably on Thursday night preceding the crucifixion on the Day of
        >Preparation ("Friday"), while in John passover seems to be Friday
        evening,
        >on the Sabbath itself.
        >
        >So all the gospels date the crucifixion on the same day relative to the
        >Sabbath, which is about to begin, but they date it differently relative
        to
        >Passover, which has already occured in the Synoptics but is yet to
        occur in
        >John. So the crucifixion came on the Day of Preparation for the
        Sabbath
        >(Friday) in all four gospels, but Passover fell either on the evening
        >preceding the Day of Preparation for the Sabbath, or "Thursday" evening
        >(Synoptics) or on the Sabbath itself, or "Friday" evening (John). I
        should
        >maybe add for clarification that is the Sabbath, not the Passover, from
        >which the days of the week are being calculated.
        >
        >Or are you getting at something else entirely?
        >
        >Belated congrats on the baby.
        >
        >Best,
        >
        >Ken
        >
        >Kenneth A. Olson
        >MA, History, University of Maryland
        >PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        -----------------------------
        Z.A. Crook
        Assistant Professor, Religion
        Carleton University
        1125 Colonel By Drive
        Ottawa, ON, K1S 5B6
        613-520-2600, ext. 2276
        www.carleton.ca/~zcrook
      • Robert Griffin
        Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I ve spent a bit of time trying to determine
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 27, 2007
          Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
          occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
          time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
          solid.

          Thanks,
          Bob Griffin
          BA, Religion, Pepperdine University

          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Olson" <kenolson101@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Richard,
          >
          > Thanks for the post, which clarified where some miscommunication
          may lie. I was trying to answer Zeb's question, not Tony's. I think
          that any scheme which uses the modern analogies
          of "Thursday", "Friday", "Saturday", etc. is necessarily supposing
          that the word "Sabbath" in the gospels means the weekly
          Sabbath. "Thursday evening" is an analogy for the evening preceding
          the Sabbath (ie., Friday) evening, etc.
          >
          > If the "Sabbath" in the gospels is being used in the sense
          of "festival day" (or any day during the Sabbath year?), rather than
          the weekly Sabbath, we really can't speak of "days of the week" at
          all. It seems to me possible that John could be using the word in
          the sense of "festival day", but it is much harder to see the
          Synoptics using that sense. If John is, we can't really say on
          what "day of the week" he places the crucifixion. The issue that he
          seems to place the crucifxion before Passover, rather than after, as
          the Synoptics do, still remains. As I mentioned earlier, Donald
          Carlson proposes multiple meanings for Passover (i.e., any evening
          meal during the entire festival could be a "Passover"). Also, I see
          in Mark's first post he said that Passover was not a (festival)
          Sabbath day in the Mishnah. I haven't got a copy of Mishnah Pesach
          handy to check that, but if it's corrrect, the problem of whether the
          word Sabbath is used in the weekly or festival sense doesn't arise,
          does it?
          >
          > Hope I haven't further confused the issue.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Ken
          >
          > Kenneth A. Olson
          > MA, History, University of Maryland
          > PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
          >
        • goranson@duke.edu
          Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to understand differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C. VanderKam, Calendars in
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
            Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to understand
            differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C. VanderKam,
            Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).

            Stephen Goranson
            http://www.duke.edu/~goranson


            Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:

            > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
            > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
            > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
            > solid.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Bob Griffin
            > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
          • RAnderson58@comcast.net
            John Pratt has written a number of articles. I suspect you might find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some gaps in logic or leaps
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
              John Pratt has written a number of articles. I suspect you might find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some gaps in logic or leaps of faith so I would not cite him.

              Richard H. Anderson

              http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/index.html
              -------------- Original message ----------------------
              From: goranson@...
              > Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to understand
              > differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C. VanderKam,
              > Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).
              >
              > Stephen Goranson
              > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
              >
              >
              > Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:
              >
              > > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
              > > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
              > > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
              > > solid.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Bob Griffin
              > > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
              >
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Griffin
              ... find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some gaps in logic or leaps of faith so I would not cite him. Rather an understatement. ...
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, RAnderson58@... wrote:
                >
                > John Pratt has written a number of articles. I suspect you might
                find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some
                gaps in logic or leaps of faith so I would not cite him.

                Rather an understatement.

                >
                > Richard H. Anderson
                >
                > http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/index.html
                > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                > From: goranson@...
                > > Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to
                understand
                > > differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C.
                VanderKam,
                > > Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).
                > >
                > > Stephen Goranson
                > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                > >
                > >
                > > Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:
                > >
                > > > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week
                Pesach
                > > > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit
                of
                > > > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across
                anything
                > > > solid.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > > Bob Griffin
                > > > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Robert Griffin
                If, as is stated elsewhere, the Qumran & Jubilees solar year began on a Wednesday, and if the first month were Abib/Nisan, then the variation between the
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
                  If, as is stated elsewhere, the Qumran & Jubilees solar year began on
                  a Wednesday, and if the first month were Abib/Nisan, then the
                  variation between the Qumran calendar and the Rabbinic calendar does
                  not explain the differences between the Synoptics and John, because
                  the Qumran calendar would always have Pesach begin on a Tuesday
                  (which none of the gospels suggest).

                  Thanks for your assistance,
                  Bob Griffin
                  BA. Religion, Pepperdine University

                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to
                  understand
                  > differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C.
                  VanderKam,
                  > Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).
                  >
                  > Stephen Goranson
                  > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                  >
                  >
                  > Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:
                  >
                  > > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
                  > > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
                  > > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
                  > > solid.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Bob Griffin
                  > > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
                  >
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