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RE: [XTalk] Passover and Sabbaths

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  • Matson, Mark (Academic)
    Richard, Ken, et.al.: Yes, the original post was dealing with the double sabbath. But most of our responses have been dealing with Zeb s questions. ... But,
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 23, 2007
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      Richard, Ken, et.al.:

      Yes, the original post was dealing with the double sabbath. But most of
      our responses have been dealing with Zeb's questions.

      > Thanks for the post, which clarified where some
      > miscommunication may lie. I was trying to answer Zeb's
      > question, not Tony's.

      But, per below, I do think a major distinction between a festival day
      (esp. Passover, which has lambs sacrificed) and a Sabbath. And more
      importantly whether there is some double preparation issue that makes a
      Friday Passover impossible.

      First, let me expand a bit on the issue from Misnah:

      1. M. Pesachim 6:1 spends a lot of time talking about what might be
      allowed (work wise) if Passover occurs on a Sabbath (an obvious
      problem). According to this discussion, the slaughter is OK, the
      tossing of blood ok. But the roasting of the flesh would not be. From
      what I can tell from a number of articles on the timing (I can dig these
      up from my carrell if need be), this led to an actual practice of
      avoiding the Passover on Sabbath. BUT, the point here is that in the
      consideration Passover is clearly NOT a sabbath or treated as one. It
      only gets to be a problem if it occurs on a sabbath. So hence my
      argument that a festival (i.e. Passover) is not a sabbath nor considered
      in the same category.

      > If the "Sabbath" in the gospels is being used in the sense of
      > "festival day" (or any day during the Sabbath year?), rather
      > than the weekly Sabbath, we really can't speak of "days of
      > the week" at all. It seems to me possible that John could be
      > using the word in the sense of "festival day", but it is much
      > harder to see the Synoptics using that sense. If John is, we
      > can't really say on what "day of the week" he places the
      > crucifixion. The issue that he seems to place the crucifxion
      > before Passover, rather than after, as the Synoptics do,
      > still remains. As I mentioned earlier, Donald Carlson
      > proposes multiple meanings for Passover (i.e., any evening
      > meal during the entire festival could be a "Passover").
      > Also, I see in Mark's first post he said that Passover was
      > not a (festival) Sabbath day in the Mishnah. I haven't got a
      > copy of Mishnah Pesach handy to check that, but if it's
      > corrrect, the problem of whether the word Sabbath is used in
      > the weekly or festival sense doesn't arise, does it?
      >
      > Hope I haven't further confused the issue.
      >
      > Best,
      >
      > Ken
      >
      > Kenneth A. Olson
      > MA, History, University of Maryland
      > PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: RAnderson58@...
      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com ; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc: Tony Buglass
      > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:23 AM
      > Subject: Re: [XTalk] Passover and Sabbaths
      >
      >
      > Unless I misunderstood the question and the responses, Rev
      > Tony was asking about the
      > double-Sabbath theory (Passover Sabbath and weekly
      > Sabbath), and its effect n the days each
      > event took place when a sabbath occurs in the midst of a
      > festival. A cursory review discloses that the
      > word sabbath does appears on occasion in the Greek as a plural.
      >
      > Richard H. Anderson
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... I recall reading somewhere -- perhaps in Hengel -- that by the first century CE, the rabbis had come to see the Passover Lamb as a sacrificial lamb.
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 23, 2007
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        Mark Matson wrote:

        >>One note, however, for those that want to see John's chronology as necessarily cooked theologically based on John the Baptist's statement: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" -- that is that the Passover lamb is NOT an sin or guilt sacrifice, but is instead a festival offering. Perhaps this is why John never makes a big deal about the coincidence of the timing of Jesus' death -- it only confuses things with respect to understanding Jesus' death.<<

        I recall reading somewhere -- perhaps in Hengel -- that by the first century CE, the rabbis had come to see the Passover Lamb as a sacrificial lamb.

        Perhaps someone else recalls more on this point.

        Jeffery Hodges


        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Zeba Crook
        Dear Ken, Thank you for this. I m never ashamed to admit how much I learn on this list. You can read and read something, and never slow down to read it
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 23, 2007
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          Dear Ken,

          Thank you for this. I'm never ashamed to admit how much I learn on
          this list. You can read and read something, and never slow down to
          read it really closely.

          Zeb


          Ken Olson wrote:


          >Zeb,
          >
          >Pardon my continued interference, but this is the question I was trying
          to
          >answer in my previous post.
          >
          >>>In John Jesus is killed on the afternoon before PAssover starts (with
          >all the other Lambs of God), and in the Synoptics he's killed in the
          >afternoon of Passover proper. That's 24 hours difference. I don't get
          >how you're saying here and in your previous post (if I'm understanding
          >correctly) that there's no difference in the day of the week of death<<
          >
          >Perhaps I'm missing what you're getting at, but it seems to me (and I
          >believe to many others) that the disagreement between John and the
          Synoptics
          >is on what day of the week Passover fell, not on what day of the week
          Jesus
          >was crucified. They all have Jesus crucified on the Day of Preparation
          for
          >the Sabbath (i.e., Friday), but they disagree about whether Passover
          was the
          >prior evening (Thursday night in the Synoptics) or the evening
          immediately
          >following the crucifixion (Friday night, on the Sabbath itself, in
          John). I
          >suspect part of the problem is that our days of the week don't
          correspond
          >very well to the presumed Jewish reckoning. Let me take another shot
          at
          >this:
          >
          >1) The Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening.
          >
          >2) The Day of Preparation for the Sabbath is Thursday evening to Friday
          >evening (i.e., when the Sabbath begins).
          >
          >3) All four gospels have Jesus die on the Day of Preparation (for the
          >Sabbath) and he is hurriedly buried as the Sabbath is beginning/about
          to
          >begin. This is what we call Friday day.
          >
          >However:
          >
          >In the Synoptics, Jesus has already celebrated Passover with his
          disciples,
          >presumably on Thursday night preceding the crucifixion on the Day of
          >Preparation ("Friday"), while in John passover seems to be Friday
          evening,
          >on the Sabbath itself.
          >
          >So all the gospels date the crucifixion on the same day relative to the
          >Sabbath, which is about to begin, but they date it differently relative
          to
          >Passover, which has already occured in the Synoptics but is yet to
          occur in
          >John. So the crucifixion came on the Day of Preparation for the
          Sabbath
          >(Friday) in all four gospels, but Passover fell either on the evening
          >preceding the Day of Preparation for the Sabbath, or "Thursday" evening
          >(Synoptics) or on the Sabbath itself, or "Friday" evening (John). I
          should
          >maybe add for clarification that is the Sabbath, not the Passover, from
          >which the days of the week are being calculated.
          >
          >Or are you getting at something else entirely?
          >
          >Belated congrats on the baby.
          >
          >Best,
          >
          >Ken
          >
          >Kenneth A. Olson
          >MA, History, University of Maryland
          >PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          -----------------------------
          Z.A. Crook
          Assistant Professor, Religion
          Carleton University
          1125 Colonel By Drive
          Ottawa, ON, K1S 5B6
          613-520-2600, ext. 2276
          www.carleton.ca/~zcrook
        • Robert Griffin
          Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I ve spent a bit of time trying to determine
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 27, 2007
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            Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
            occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
            time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
            solid.

            Thanks,
            Bob Griffin
            BA, Religion, Pepperdine University

            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Olson" <kenolson101@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Richard,
            >
            > Thanks for the post, which clarified where some miscommunication
            may lie. I was trying to answer Zeb's question, not Tony's. I think
            that any scheme which uses the modern analogies
            of "Thursday", "Friday", "Saturday", etc. is necessarily supposing
            that the word "Sabbath" in the gospels means the weekly
            Sabbath. "Thursday evening" is an analogy for the evening preceding
            the Sabbath (ie., Friday) evening, etc.
            >
            > If the "Sabbath" in the gospels is being used in the sense
            of "festival day" (or any day during the Sabbath year?), rather than
            the weekly Sabbath, we really can't speak of "days of the week" at
            all. It seems to me possible that John could be using the word in
            the sense of "festival day", but it is much harder to see the
            Synoptics using that sense. If John is, we can't really say on
            what "day of the week" he places the crucifixion. The issue that he
            seems to place the crucifxion before Passover, rather than after, as
            the Synoptics do, still remains. As I mentioned earlier, Donald
            Carlson proposes multiple meanings for Passover (i.e., any evening
            meal during the entire festival could be a "Passover"). Also, I see
            in Mark's first post he said that Passover was not a (festival)
            Sabbath day in the Mishnah. I haven't got a copy of Mishnah Pesach
            handy to check that, but if it's corrrect, the problem of whether the
            word Sabbath is used in the weekly or festival sense doesn't arise,
            does it?
            >
            > Hope I haven't further confused the issue.
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > Ken
            >
            > Kenneth A. Olson
            > MA, History, University of Maryland
            > PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
            >
          • goranson@duke.edu
            Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to understand differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C. VanderKam, Calendars in
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
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              Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to understand
              differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C. VanderKam,
              Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).

              Stephen Goranson
              http://www.duke.edu/~goranson


              Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:

              > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
              > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
              > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
              > solid.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Bob Griffin
              > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
            • RAnderson58@comcast.net
              John Pratt has written a number of articles. I suspect you might find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some gaps in logic or leaps
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
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                John Pratt has written a number of articles. I suspect you might find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some gaps in logic or leaps of faith so I would not cite him.

                Richard H. Anderson

                http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/index.html
                -------------- Original message ----------------------
                From: goranson@...
                > Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to understand
                > differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C. VanderKam,
                > Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).
                >
                > Stephen Goranson
                > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                >
                >
                > Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:
                >
                > > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
                > > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
                > > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
                > > solid.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Bob Griffin
                > > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
                >
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert Griffin
                ... find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some gaps in logic or leaps of faith so I would not cite him. Rather an understatement. ...
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
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                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, RAnderson58@... wrote:
                  >
                  > John Pratt has written a number of articles. I suspect you might
                  find some good leads in his writings. However I think there are some
                  gaps in logic or leaps of faith so I would not cite him.

                  Rather an understatement.

                  >
                  > Richard H. Anderson
                  >
                  > http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/index.html
                  > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                  > From: goranson@...
                  > > Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to
                  understand
                  > > differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C.
                  VanderKam,
                  > > Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).
                  > >
                  > > Stephen Goranson
                  > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:
                  > >
                  > > > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week
                  Pesach
                  > > > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit
                  of
                  > > > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across
                  anything
                  > > > solid.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > > Bob Griffin
                  > > > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Robert Griffin
                  If, as is stated elsewhere, the Qumran & Jubilees solar year began on a Wednesday, and if the first month were Abib/Nisan, then the variation between the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 28, 2007
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                    If, as is stated elsewhere, the Qumran & Jubilees solar year began on
                    a Wednesday, and if the first month were Abib/Nisan, then the
                    variation between the Qumran calendar and the Rabbinic calendar does
                    not explain the differences between the Synoptics and John, because
                    the Qumran calendar would always have Pesach begin on a Tuesday
                    (which none of the gospels suggest).

                    Thanks for your assistance,
                    Bob Griffin
                    BA. Religion, Pepperdine University

                    --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Annie Jaubert in the 1950s proposed using this calendar to
                    understand
                    > differences between John and the synoptics. I recommend: James C.
                    VanderKam,
                    > Calendars in the Dead Sea scrolls : measuring time (1998).
                    >
                    > Stephen Goranson
                    > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                    >
                    >
                    > Quoting Robert Griffin <muggleorsquib@...>:
                    >
                    > > Has anyone considered or calculated what on day of the week Pesach
                    > > occurs in the calendar in 1Q4MMT or Jubilees? I've spent a bit of
                    > > time trying to determine this, but haven't yet run across anything
                    > > solid.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Bob Griffin
                    > > BA, Religion, Pepperdine University
                    >
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