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Oral tradition and the gospels

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  • Rikk Watts
    Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and the gospels in the light of Ted W s (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly encouraged to read
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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      Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and the gospels
      in the light of Ted W's (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly encouraged
      to read Richard Bauckham's newly published JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES.

      It is instructive to see Bauckham's read, e.g., of Vansina (someone whom Ted
      has on occasion invoked but in my opinion somewhat selectively to put it
      mildly) actually in support of the accuracy of oral history (as opposed to
      oral tradition). But in any case it seems to me that Bauckham's wide-ranging
      work has in many respects rendered the Bailey issue somewhat passé.

      This is probably the best book on orality and the gospel tradition that is
      out there at the moment and anyone interested in the topic, whether they
      agree or not, will be richly rewarded by giving it a careful read. (The
      footnoted materials are alone worth the price of admission).

      And yes he does argue for a very close and accurate link between the
      traditions contained in the gospels and the teachings of Jesus. Anyone
      positing the kind of free-wheeling creativity which Ted as well as the older
      more radical form critics whose ghosts are still with us so often presuppose
      can no longer do so without taking B into account.

      Regards
      Rikk Watts
    • Gordon Raynal
      Hi Rikk, Interesting that you should mention Baukham this season. Some way or another he got my email address and sent me an ad for his new book, The
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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        Hi Rikk,

        Interesting that you should mention Baukham this season. Some way or
        another he got my email address and sent me an ad for his new book,
        "The Macbears of Bearlock." (If anyone wants to check it out go to
        Amazon.uk). It has a lovely realistic picture of a nicely clothed
        bear riding a horse through one of Scotland's lochs on the cover. Am
        glad to see Richard does have some positive understanding of the
        power and delights of fictional story telling:)! Good to know he has
        some love of "free-wheeling creativity!" That is often the best and
        most powerful kind.

        Have a Merry Christmas!

        Gordon Raynal
        Inman, SC

        On Dec 9, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Rikk Watts wrote:

        > Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and
        > the gospels
        > in the light of Ted W's (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly
        > encouraged
        > to read Richard Bauckham's newly published JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES.
        >
        > It is instructive to see Bauckham's read, e.g., of Vansina (someone
        > whom Ted
        > has on occasion invoked but in my opinion somewhat selectively to
        > put it
        > mildly) actually in support of the accuracy of oral history (as
        > opposed to
        > oral tradition). But in any case it seems to me that Bauckham's
        > wide-ranging
        > work has in many respects rendered the Bailey issue somewhat passé.
        >
        > This is probably the best book on orality and the gospel tradition
        > that is
        > out there at the moment and anyone interested in the topic, whether
        > they
        > agree or not, will be richly rewarded by giving it a careful read.
        > (The
        > footnoted materials are alone worth the price of admission).
        >
        > And yes he does argue for a very close and accurate link between the
        > traditions contained in the gospels and the teachings of Jesus. Anyone
        > positing the kind of free-wheeling creativity which Ted as well as
        > the older
        > more radical form critics whose ghosts are still with us so often
        > presuppose
        > can no longer do so without taking B into account.
        >
        > Regards
        > Rikk Watts
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
        >
        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
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        >
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        > owners@yahoogroups.com
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        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Rikk Watts
        And to you Gordon! Rikk
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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          And to you Gordon!

          Rikk


          On 9/12/06 2:31 PM, "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...> wrote:

          > Hi Rikk,
          >
          > Interesting that you should mention Baukham this season. Some way or
          > another he got my email address and sent me an ad for his new book,
          > "The Macbears of Bearlock." (If anyone wants to check it out go to
          > Amazon.uk). It has a lovely realistic picture of a nicely clothed
          > bear riding a horse through one of Scotland's lochs on the cover. Am
          > glad to see Richard does have some positive understanding of the
          > power and delights of fictional story telling:)! Good to know he has
          > some love of "free-wheeling creativity!" That is often the best and
          > most powerful kind.
          >
          > Have a Merry Christmas!
          >
          > Gordon Raynal
          > Inman, SC
          >
          > On Dec 9, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Rikk Watts wrote:
          >
          >> Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and
          >> the gospels
          >> in the light of Ted W's (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly
          >> encouraged
          >> to read Richard Bauckham's newly published JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES.
          >>
          >> It is instructive to see Bauckham's read, e.g., of Vansina (someone
          >> whom Ted
          >> has on occasion invoked but in my opinion somewhat selectively to
          >> put it
          >> mildly) actually in support of the accuracy of oral history (as
          >> opposed to
          >> oral tradition). But in any case it seems to me that Bauckham's
          >> wide-ranging
          >> work has in many respects rendered the Bailey issue somewhat passé.
          >>
          >> This is probably the best book on orality and the gospel tradition
          >> that is
          >> out there at the moment and anyone interested in the topic, whether
          >> they
          >> agree or not, will be richly rewarded by giving it a careful read.
          >> (The
          >> footnoted materials are alone worth the price of admission).
          >>
          >> And yes he does argue for a very close and accurate link between the
          >> traditions contained in the gospels and the teachings of Jesus. Anyone
          >> positing the kind of free-wheeling creativity which Ted as well as
          >> the older
          >> more radical form critics whose ghosts are still with us so often
          >> presuppose
          >> can no longer do so without taking B into account.
          >>
          >> Regards
          >> Rikk Watts
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
          >>
          >> To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
          >> subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
          >> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >> List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-
          >> owners@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
          >
          > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Bob Schacht
          ... Rikk, Thanks for this recommendation. I ll put this book on my list. Bob ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 10, 2006
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            At 08:41 AM 12/9/2006, Rikk Watts wrote:
            >Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and the gospels
            >in the light of Ted W's (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly encouraged
            >to read Richard Bauckham's newly published JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES.

            Rikk,
            Thanks for this recommendation. I'll put this book on my list.
            Bob


            >It is instructive to see Bauckham's read, e.g., of Vansina (someone whom Ted
            >has on occasion invoked but in my opinion somewhat selectively to put it
            >mildly) actually in support of the accuracy of oral history (as opposed to
            >oral tradition). . . .
            >This is probably the best book on orality and the gospel tradition that is
            >out there at the moment and anyone interested in the topic, whether they
            >agree or not, will be richly rewarded by giving it a careful read. (The
            >footnoted materials are alone worth the price of admission).
            >
            >And yes he does argue for a very close and accurate link between the
            >traditions contained in the gospels and the teachings of Jesus. Anyone
            >positing the kind of free-wheeling creativity which Ted as well as the older
            >more radical form critics whose ghosts are still with us so often presuppose
            >can no longer do so without taking B into account.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP
            ... This title is harder to find locally than one might expect. Boarders is out of stock, Barnes & Noble hasn t heard of it, but Amazon is pumping it on the
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 11, 2006
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              At 08:41 AM 12/9/2006, Rikk Watts wrote:
              >>Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and the gospels
              >>in the light of Ted W's (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly encouraged
              >>to read Richard Bauckham's newly published JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES.

              >Rikk,
              >Thanks for this recommendation. I'll put this book on my list.
              >Bob

              This title is harder to find locally than one might expect. Boarders is out of stock, Barnes & Noble hasn't heard of it, but Amazon is pumping it on the web. At the expense of reviewing it here early, I'm ordering through my local neighborhood bookshop.

              ------------------------------------------------------------
              Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP, Hon. ASLA
              edmiston@...
              ------------------------------------------------------------
              Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου μετὰ πάντων.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Theodore Weeden
              Rikk Watts wrote on December 09, 2006 1:41 PM Subject: [XTalk] Oral tradition and the gospels ... in the light of Ted W s (et al) critique of Bailey are
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 14, 2006
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                Rikk Watts wrote on December 09, 2006 1:41 PM
                Subject: [XTalk] Oral tradition and the gospels


                >Readers who are aware of the recent debate re oral tradition and the
                >gospels
                in the light of Ted W's (et al) critique of Bailey are strongly encouraged
                to read Richard Bauckham's newly published JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES.

                It is instructive to see Bauckham's read, e.g., of Vansina (someone whom Ted
                has on occasion invoked but in my opinion somewhat selectively to put it
                mildly) actually in support of the accuracy of oral history (as opposed to
                oral tradition). But in any case it seems to me that Bauckham's wide-ranging
                work has in many respects rendered the Bailey issue somewhat passé.

                This is probably the best book on orality and the gospel tradition that is
                out there at the moment and anyone interested in the topic, whether they
                agree or not, will be richly rewarded by giving it a careful read. (The
                footnoted materials are alone worth the price of admission).

                And yes he does argue for a very close and accurate link between the
                traditions contained in the gospels and the teachings of Jesus. Anyone
                positing the kind of free-wheeling creativity which Ted as well as the older
                more radical form critics whose ghosts are still with us so often presuppose
                can no longer do so without taking B into account.<

                Rikk, I will be taking Richard Bauckham's _Jesus and the Eyewitnesses_ into
                account. I have been one of four scholars whom Bob Webb, editor of _JSHJ_,
                has asked to provide a 5000-7000 word review of Bauckham's work, to which
                Bauckham will subsequently respond.. Richard has also written me
                indicating that he is "looking forward to knowing what I make" of his book.
                I am honored by Bob for inviting me to present a review of Richard's work,
                and anxious to learn from Richard and be in dialogue with him. I have also
                offered to send him my critique of Bailey's theory of oral tradition, which
                Bob Webb has also asked me to submit to _JSHJ_ for publication as soon as I
                can complete my current revision, a revision which will include a section on
                the character and purpose of a Middle East *haflat samar* according to a
                number of professional Arabists and native Middle East people I have
                consulted vs. Bailey's profile of such a community gathering in the the
                John Hogg-founded southern Egypt Christian communities.

                I also want to take this opportunity, Rikk, to apologize for breaking off
                our dialogue over my thesis that Mark created Judas and his betrayal, and,
                in particular (at the point at which I broke off the dialogue in late
                summer) that John was dependent upon Mark as a hypotext for his own
                hypertext profiling of Judas. Health issues and urgent family matters
                suddenly required my attention; and once those were resolved, I found myself
                so far behind in publication commitments, as well as on-going teaching
                commitments, that I have not had time since last summer to resume the
                dialogue. I hope to do so in the near future. But right now I have too
                much on my plate to give my engagement with you over my Judas thesis the
                time and attention it requires.

                Regards,

                Ted
                Theodore J. Weeden, Sr.
                Retired
                Ph.D., Claremont Graduate University
              • Rikk Watts
                Dear Ted, Congratulations on your being offered such an opportunity and I very much look forward to seeing your response. Re Judas: please don t worry my
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 14, 2006
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                  Dear Ted,

                  Congratulations on your being offered such an opportunity and I very much
                  look forward to seeing your response.

                  Re Judas: please don't worry my friend. I do hope that those health and
                  family issues have been happily resolved.

                  Every blessing
                  Rikk


                  On 14/12/06 6:47 AM, "Theodore Weeden" <Tweeden@...> wrote:


                  > Rikk, ... I have been one of four scholars whom Bob Webb, editor of _JSHJ_,
                  > has asked to provide a 5000-7000 word review of Bauckham's work, to which
                  > Bauckham will subsequently respond.. Richard has also written me
                  > indicating that he is "looking forward to knowing what I make" of his book.
                  > I am honored by Bob for inviting me to present a review of Richard's work,
                  > and anxious to learn from Richard and be in dialogue with him. I have also
                  > offered to send him my critique of Bailey's theory of oral tradition, which
                  > Bob Webb has also asked me to submit to _JSHJ_ for publication as soon as I
                  > can complete my current revision, a revision which will include a section on
                  > the character and purpose of a Middle East *haflat samar* according to a
                  > number of professional Arabists and native Middle East people I have
                  > consulted vs. Bailey's profile of such a community gathering in the the
                  > John Hogg-founded southern Egypt Christian communities.
                  >
                  > I also want to take this opportunity, Rikk, to apologize for breaking off
                  > our dialogue over my thesis that Mark created Judas and his betrayal, and,
                  > in particular (at the point at which I broke off the dialogue in late
                  > summer) that John was dependent upon Mark as a hypotext for his own
                  > hypertext profiling of Judas. Health issues and urgent family matters
                  > suddenly required my attention; and once those were resolved, I found myself
                  > so far behind in publication commitments, as well as on-going teaching
                  > commitments, that I have not had time since last summer to resume the
                  > dialogue. I hope to do so in the near future. But right now I have too
                  > much on my plate to give my engagement with you over my Judas thesis the
                  > time and attention it requires.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Ted
                  > Theodore J. Weeden, Sr.
                  > Retired
                  > Ph.D., Claremont Graduate University
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                  >
                  > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Richard Fellows
                  In case you don t know, Bauckham s new book is being discussed on Chris Tilling s blog: http://www.christilling.de/blog/ctblog.html Richard. [Non-text portions
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 18, 2006
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                    In case you don't know, Bauckham's new book is being discussed on Chris Tilling's blog:

                    http://www.christilling.de/blog/ctblog.html

                    Richard.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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