Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: More on the Gospel of Judas... Oops. Maybe it was misread.

Expand Messages
  • Robert Griffin
    ... clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas. ... what you mean by the latter half of your statement
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" <dhindley@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Bob Griffin said:
      >
      > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
      clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
      in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
      >
      > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
      what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
      not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
      popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
      Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
      saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?

      I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
      not revealed to the other disciples.
      In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
      Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
      knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
      at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
      referred.

      >
      > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
      wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
      of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
      scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
      >
      > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
      Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
      as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
      recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
      describes in any but a general way.
      >
      > Respectfully,
      >
      > Dave Hindley
      > Cleveland, Ohio USA
      >
      I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
      Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
      didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
      I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
      Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
      varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
      modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
      both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
      over a period of time.

      Be Well,
      Bob Griffin
    • dbockdts
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Bob Griffin said:
        > >
        > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
        > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
        > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
        > >
        > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
        > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
        > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
        > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
        > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
        > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
        >
        > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
        > not revealed to the other disciples.
        > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
        > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
        > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
        > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
        > referred.
        >
        > >
        > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
        > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
        > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
        > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
        > >
        > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
        > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
        > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
        > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
        > describes in any but a general way.
        > >
        > > Respectfully,
        > >
        > > Dave Hindley
        > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
        > >
        > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
        > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
        > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
        > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
        > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
        > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
        > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
        > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
        > over a period of time.
        >
        > Be Well,
        > Bob Griffin
        >
      • dbockdts
        To all: A few quick thoughts: 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times)
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          To all:

          A few quick thoughts:

          1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
          developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times) characteristic of
          such texts (to mention 2 key features).

          2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnostic text if not a Cainite
          Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

          3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
          close relative given the take on Judas.

          4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
          prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
          Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
          told lest they burn.

          Darrell Bock


          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Bob Griffin said:
          > > >
          > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
          > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
          > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
          > > >
          > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
          > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
          > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
          > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
          > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
          > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
          > >
          > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
          > > not revealed to the other disciples.
          > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
          > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
          > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
          > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
          > > referred.
          > >
          > > >
          > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
          > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
          > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
          > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
          > > >
          > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
          > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
          > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
          > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
          > > describes in any but a general way.
          > > >
          > > > Respectfully,
          > > >
          > > > Dave Hindley
          > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
          > > >
          > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
          > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
          > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
          > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
          > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
          > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
          > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
          > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
          > > over a period of time.
          > >
          > > Be Well,
          > > Bob Griffin
          > >
          >
        • dbockdts
          ... 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to mention 2 key
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
            1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
            developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to
            mention 2 key features).

            2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnsotic text if not a Cainite
            Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

            3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
            close relative given the take on Judas.

            4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
            prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
            Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
            told lest they burn.

            Darrell Bock


            > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Bob Griffin said:
            > > >
            > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
            > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
            > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
            > > >
            > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
            > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
            > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
            > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
            > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
            > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
            > >
            > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
            > > not revealed to the other disciples.
            > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
            > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
            > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
            > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
            > > referred.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
            > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
            > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
            > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
            > > >
            > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
            > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
            > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
            > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
            > > describes in any but a general way.
            > > >
            > > > Respectfully,
            > > >
            > > > Dave Hindley
            > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
            > > >
            > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
            > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
            > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
            > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
            > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
            > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
            > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
            > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
            > > over a period of time.
            > >
            > > Be Well,
            > > Bob Griffin
            > >
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.