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Re: [XTalk] Re: More on the Gospel of Judas... Oops. Maybe it was misread.

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  • Jim West
    ... I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John. Best Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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      Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
      > David Hindley wrote:
      >
      >>> I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<
      >
      > Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?
      >
      > Jeffery Hodges

      I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John.

      Best

      Jim


      --
      Jim West, ThD

      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
      http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Thanks, Jim, you must be right. I d been reading the posts, but perhaps not closely enough. Jeffery Hodges Jim West wrote: ... I think
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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        Thanks, Jim, you must be right. I'd been reading the posts, but perhaps not closely enough.

        Jeffery Hodges

        Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:


        Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
        > David Hindley wrote:
        >
        >>> I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<
        >
        > Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?
        >
        > Jeffery Hodges

        I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John.

        Best

        Jim


        --
        Jim West, ThD

        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
        http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog


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        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Griffin
        ... clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas. ... what you mean by the latter half of your statement
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" <dhindley@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Bob Griffin said:
          >
          > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
          clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
          in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
          >
          > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
          what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
          not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
          popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
          Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
          saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?

          I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
          not revealed to the other disciples.
          In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
          Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
          knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
          at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
          referred.

          >
          > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
          wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
          of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
          scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
          >
          > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
          Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
          as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
          recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
          describes in any but a general way.
          >
          > Respectfully,
          >
          > Dave Hindley
          > Cleveland, Ohio USA
          >
          I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
          Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
          didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
          I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
          Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
          varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
          modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
          both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
          over a period of time.

          Be Well,
          Bob Griffin
        • David C. Hindley
          Jeffrey, That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel, I m sure, most everybody will agree is Gnostic . Dave ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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            Jeffrey,

            That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel,
            I'm sure, most everybody will agree is "Gnostic".

            Dave

            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges

            <<Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think
            that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?>>
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Thanks. Jim also pointed this out. I guess that I m not as alert this weekend, having gotten a cold. Jeffery Hodges David C. Hindley
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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              Thanks. Jim also pointed this out. I guess that I'm not as alert this weekend, having gotten a cold.

              Jeffery Hodges

              "David C. Hindley" <dhindley@...> wrote:
              Jeffrey,

              That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel,
              I'm sure, most everybody will agree is "Gnostic".

              Dave

              --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges

              <that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?>>





              The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

              To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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              Yahoo! Groups Links






              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Blog:

              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Department of English Language and Literature
              Korea University
              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              Seoul
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
              Sinnae-dong 795
              Jungrang-gu
              Seoul 131-770
              South Korea

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dbockdts
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Bob Griffin said:
                > >
                > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                > >
                > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                >
                > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                > not revealed to the other disciples.
                > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                > referred.
                >
                > >
                > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                > >
                > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                > describes in any but a general way.
                > >
                > > Respectfully,
                > >
                > > Dave Hindley
                > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                > >
                > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                > over a period of time.
                >
                > Be Well,
                > Bob Griffin
                >
              • dbockdts
                To all: A few quick thoughts: 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times)
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                  To all:

                  A few quick thoughts:

                  1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
                  developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times) characteristic of
                  such texts (to mention 2 key features).

                  2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnostic text if not a Cainite
                  Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

                  3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
                  close relative given the take on Judas.

                  4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
                  prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
                  Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
                  told lest they burn.

                  Darrell Bock


                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Bob Griffin said:
                  > > >
                  > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                  > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                  > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                  > > >
                  > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                  > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                  > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                  > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                  > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                  > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                  > >
                  > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                  > > not revealed to the other disciples.
                  > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                  > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                  > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                  > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                  > > referred.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                  > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                  > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                  > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                  > > >
                  > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                  > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                  > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                  > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                  > > describes in any but a general way.
                  > > >
                  > > > Respectfully,
                  > > >
                  > > > Dave Hindley
                  > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                  > > >
                  > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                  > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                  > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                  > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                  > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                  > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                  > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                  > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                  > > over a period of time.
                  > >
                  > > Be Well,
                  > > Bob Griffin
                  > >
                  >
                • dbockdts
                  ... 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to mention 2 key
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                    --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
                    1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
                    developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to
                    mention 2 key features).

                    2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnsotic text if not a Cainite
                    Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

                    3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
                    close relative given the take on Judas.

                    4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
                    prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
                    Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
                    told lest they burn.

                    Darrell Bock


                    > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Bob Griffin said:
                    > > >
                    > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                    > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                    > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                    > > >
                    > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                    > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                    > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                    > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                    > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                    > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                    > >
                    > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                    > > not revealed to the other disciples.
                    > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                    > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                    > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                    > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                    > > referred.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                    > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                    > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                    > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                    > > >
                    > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                    > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                    > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                    > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                    > > describes in any but a general way.
                    > > >
                    > > > Respectfully,
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave Hindley
                    > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                    > > >
                    > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                    > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                    > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                    > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                    > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                    > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                    > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                    > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                    > > over a period of time.
                    > >
                    > > Be Well,
                    > > Bob Griffin
                    > >
                    >
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