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Re: [XTalk] Re: More on the Gospel of Judas... Oops. Maybe it was misread.

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    ... Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic? Jeffery Hodges University Degrees: Ph.D., History,
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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      David Hindley wrote:

      >>I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<

      Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?

      Jeffery Hodges


      University Degrees:

      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

      Email Address:

      jefferyhodges@...

      Blog:

      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

      Office Address:

      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Department of English Language and Literature
      Korea University
      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
      Seoul
      South Korea

      Home Address:

      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
      Sinnae-dong 795
      Jungrang-gu
      Seoul 131-770
      South Korea

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim West
      ... I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John. Best Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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        Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
        > David Hindley wrote:
        >
        >>> I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<
        >
        > Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?
        >
        > Jeffery Hodges

        I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John.

        Best

        Jim


        --
        Jim West, ThD

        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
        http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Thanks, Jim, you must be right. I d been reading the posts, but perhaps not closely enough. Jeffery Hodges Jim West wrote: ... I think
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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          Thanks, Jim, you must be right. I'd been reading the posts, but perhaps not closely enough.

          Jeffery Hodges

          Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:


          Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
          > David Hindley wrote:
          >
          >>> I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<
          >
          > Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?
          >
          > Jeffery Hodges

          I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John.

          Best

          Jim


          --
          Jim West, ThD

          http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
          http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog


          The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

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          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Griffin
          ... clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas. ... what you mean by the latter half of your statement
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" <dhindley@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Bob Griffin said:
            >
            > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
            clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
            in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
            >
            > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
            what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
            not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
            popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
            Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
            saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?

            I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
            not revealed to the other disciples.
            In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
            Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
            knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
            at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
            referred.

            >
            > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
            wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
            of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
            scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
            >
            > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
            Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
            as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
            recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
            describes in any but a general way.
            >
            > Respectfully,
            >
            > Dave Hindley
            > Cleveland, Ohio USA
            >
            I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
            Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
            didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
            I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
            Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
            varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
            modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
            both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
            over a period of time.

            Be Well,
            Bob Griffin
          • David C. Hindley
            Jeffrey, That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel, I m sure, most everybody will agree is Gnostic . Dave ...
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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              Jeffrey,

              That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel,
              I'm sure, most everybody will agree is "Gnostic".

              Dave

              --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges

              <<Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think
              that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?>>
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Thanks. Jim also pointed this out. I guess that I m not as alert this weekend, having gotten a cold. Jeffery Hodges David C. Hindley
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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                Thanks. Jim also pointed this out. I guess that I'm not as alert this weekend, having gotten a cold.

                Jeffery Hodges

                "David C. Hindley" <dhindley@...> wrote:
                Jeffrey,

                That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel,
                I'm sure, most everybody will agree is "Gnostic".

                Dave

                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges

                <that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?>>





                The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

                To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                Yahoo! Groups Links






                University Degrees:

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Email Address:

                jefferyhodges@...

                Blog:

                http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                Office Address:

                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Department of English Language and Literature
                Korea University
                136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                Seoul
                South Korea

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                Sinnae-dong 795
                Jungrang-gu
                Seoul 131-770
                South Korea

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • dbockdts
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Bob Griffin said:
                  > >
                  > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                  > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                  > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                  > >
                  > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                  > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                  > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                  > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                  > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                  > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                  >
                  > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                  > not revealed to the other disciples.
                  > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                  > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                  > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                  > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                  > referred.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                  > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                  > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                  > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                  > >
                  > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                  > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                  > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                  > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                  > describes in any but a general way.
                  > >
                  > > Respectfully,
                  > >
                  > > Dave Hindley
                  > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                  > >
                  > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                  > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                  > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                  > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                  > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                  > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                  > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                  > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                  > over a period of time.
                  >
                  > Be Well,
                  > Bob Griffin
                  >
                • dbockdts
                  To all: A few quick thoughts: 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times)
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                    To all:

                    A few quick thoughts:

                    1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
                    developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times) characteristic of
                    such texts (to mention 2 key features).

                    2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnostic text if not a Cainite
                    Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

                    3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
                    close relative given the take on Judas.

                    4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
                    prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
                    Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
                    told lest they burn.

                    Darrell Bock


                    --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Bob Griffin said:
                    > > >
                    > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                    > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                    > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                    > > >
                    > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                    > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                    > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                    > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                    > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                    > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                    > >
                    > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                    > > not revealed to the other disciples.
                    > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                    > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                    > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                    > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                    > > referred.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                    > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                    > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                    > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                    > > >
                    > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                    > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                    > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                    > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                    > > describes in any but a general way.
                    > > >
                    > > > Respectfully,
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave Hindley
                    > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                    > > >
                    > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                    > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                    > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                    > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                    > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                    > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                    > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                    > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                    > > over a period of time.
                    > >
                    > > Be Well,
                    > > Bob Griffin
                    > >
                    >
                  • dbockdts
                    ... 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to mention 2 key
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
                      1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
                      developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to
                      mention 2 key features).

                      2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnsotic text if not a Cainite
                      Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

                      3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
                      close relative given the take on Judas.

                      4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
                      prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
                      Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
                      told lest they burn.

                      Darrell Bock


                      > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Bob Griffin said:
                      > > >
                      > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                      > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                      > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                      > > >
                      > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                      > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                      > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                      > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                      > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                      > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                      > >
                      > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                      > > not revealed to the other disciples.
                      > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                      > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                      > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                      > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                      > > referred.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                      > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                      > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                      > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                      > > >
                      > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                      > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                      > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                      > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                      > > describes in any but a general way.
                      > > >
                      > > > Respectfully,
                      > > >
                      > > > Dave Hindley
                      > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                      > > >
                      > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                      > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                      > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                      > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                      > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                      > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                      > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                      > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                      > > over a period of time.
                      > >
                      > > Be Well,
                      > > Bob Griffin
                      > >
                      >
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