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Re: [XTalk] More on the Gospel of Judas... Oops. Maybe it was misread.

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... All this does is point out that relying on what the media says as the source of your claims for what scholars have or have not said with respect to the
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 5, 2006
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      Robert Griffin wrote:

      > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
      > <jgibson000@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Robert Griffin wrote:
      > >
      > > > PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the scholars
      > > > doesn't include the question of whether this book is the Gospel of
      > > > Judas used by the Cainites.
      > > >
      > >
      > > What makes you think this isn't included?
      > >
      > > Jeffrey Gibson
      > > --
      > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > > Chicago, Illinois
      > > e-mail jgibson000@...
      >
      > The CBC News story at http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-
      > scholars.html entirely ignores the fact that if this is indeed the
      > Gospel of Judas mentioned by Irenaeus, Judas is likely to be
      > presented as a spiritual revolutionary and hero rather than as a
      > villain or a dupe. If we have enough of the document, and if it is
      > indeed the Cainite Gospel of Judas, then I would expect to find some
      > clearer evidences of Cainite (or at least Gnostic) teachings.

      All this does is point out that relying on what the media says as the source of
      your claims for what scholars have or have not said with respect to the Gospel of
      Judas (or any other topic) is as hazardous as it is methodologically unsound.

      I suggest that before you make such global claims about what scholars have and
      have not said, you avoid relying for your claims on second hand reports of what
      they have or have not said, and instead go straight to the works of the scholars
      themselves.

      Jeffrey Gibson
      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Robert Griffin
      ... scholars ... Gospel of ... http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas- ... is ... some ... the source of ... the Gospel of ... methodologically
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 6, 2006
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        --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
        <jgibson000@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Robert Griffin wrote:
        >
        > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
        > > <jgibson000@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Robert Griffin wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the
        scholars
        > > > > doesn't include the question of whether this book is the
        Gospel of
        > > > > Judas used by the Cainites.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > What makes you think this isn't included?
        > > >
        > > > Jeffrey Gibson
        > > > --
        > > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        > > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        > > > Chicago, Illinois
        > > > e-mail jgibson000@
        > >
        > > The CBC News story at
        http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-
        > > scholars.html entirely ignores the fact that if this is indeed the
        > > Gospel of Judas mentioned by Irenaeus, Judas is likely to be
        > > presented as a spiritual revolutionary and hero rather than as a
        > > villain or a dupe. If we have enough of the document, and if it
        is
        > > indeed the Cainite Gospel of Judas, then I would expect to find
        some
        > > clearer evidences of Cainite (or at least Gnostic) teachings.
        >
        > All this does is point out that relying on what the media says as
        the source of
        > your claims for what scholars have or have not said with respect to
        the Gospel of
        > Judas (or any other topic) is as hazardous as it is
        methodologically unsound.
        >
        > I suggest that before you make such global claims about what
        scholars have and
        > have not said, you avoid relying for your claims on second hand
        reports of what
        > they have or have not said, and instead go straight to the works of
        the scholars
        > themselves.
        >
        > Jeffrey Gibson
        > --
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        > Chicago, Illinois
        > e-mail jgibson000@...
        >
        Correction taken to heart. Since I don't work in the field, and am
        short on both money and time, I will ask the list community if the
        current discussion over re-assessment of the role of Judas in the
        betrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of Judas involves also a re-
        assessment of whether a) this manuscript is indeed a copy of the
        Cainite Gospel of Judas and/or b) Irenaeus et al. actually
        misunderstood the Cainite Gospel of Judas.

        My own observations are as follows:
        The three characteristic Gnostic figures in the text of the Gospel of
        Judas (Barbelos, Saklas, Ialdabaoth) are not specifically Cainite,
        and I found no occurence of the word/name 'Hysteros' (referring to
        the prime Cainite diety, according to Irenaeus, if I read him
        correctly). So, from that point of view, this work might not be the
        same that Irenaeus wrote about. On the other hand, it is clearly a
        Gnostic document, and equally clearly treats Judas in roughly the
        same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas.

        Thanks for any input.

        Be Well,
        Bob Griffin
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