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Re: [XTalk] More on the Gospel of Judas... Oops. Maybe it was misread.

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  • Christian M. M. Brady
    ... Only because they were discovered and released in a different media era. Today I am certain they would get similar treatment, as the numerous books
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 4, 2006
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      On 12/4/06 12:36 PM, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:
      >
      > That's an interesting article and I have read the book and examined photos
      > of some of the mss pages and lamented the codex was in such incompetent
      > hands for so long and so badly deteriorated. I don't understand why the GoJ
      > has brought about another "Da Vinci Code' -like cultic uproar while other
      > similarly "heretical" Gnostic gospels found among the Nag Hammadi codices
      > did not.
      >
      Only because they were discovered and released in a different media era.
      Today I am certain they would get similar treatment, as the numerous books
      rehashing this material demonstrates.

      Yours,

      Chris

      --
      Cb
      cbrady @ targuman.org
      http://targuman.org/blog/

      "There are a good many fools who call me a friend,
      and also a good many friends who call me a fool."
      - Chesterton



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Robert Griffin
      Greetings, The following ancient reference to the Gospel of Judas suggests that they got the interpretation more or less correct the first time: 1. Others
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 4, 2006
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        Greetings,

        The following ancient reference to the Gospel of Judas suggests that
        they got the interpretation more or less correct the first time:
        "1. Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power
        above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such
        persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they
        have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered
        injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which
        belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the
        traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he
        alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery
        of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were
        thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this
        kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."
        http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xxxii.html
        Irenaeus, 'Against Heresies'

        So, if this is indeed the book referenced by Irenaeus, then Judas
        would be written up as a hero.

        Be Well,
        Bob Griffin
        PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the scholars
        doesn't include the question of whether this book is the Gospel of
        Judas used by the Cainites.
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... What makes you think this isn t included? Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 4, 2006
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          Robert Griffin wrote:

          > PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the scholars
          > doesn't include the question of whether this book is the Gospel of
          > Judas used by the Cainites.
          >

          What makes you think this isn't included?

          Jeffrey Gibson
          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Robert Griffin
          ... The CBC News story at http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas- scholars.html entirely ignores the fact that if this is indeed the Gospel of Judas
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 5, 2006
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            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
            <jgibson000@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Robert Griffin wrote:
            >
            > > PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the scholars
            > > doesn't include the question of whether this book is the Gospel of
            > > Judas used by the Cainites.
            > >
            >
            > What makes you think this isn't included?
            >
            > Jeffrey Gibson
            > --
            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            > Chicago, Illinois
            > e-mail jgibson000@...

            The CBC News story at http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-
            scholars.html entirely ignores the fact that if this is indeed the
            Gospel of Judas mentioned by Irenaeus, Judas is likely to be
            presented as a spiritual revolutionary and hero rather than as a
            villain or a dupe. If we have enough of the document, and if it is
            indeed the Cainite Gospel of Judas, then I would expect to find some
            clearer evidences of Cainite (or at least Gnostic) teachings.

            Nearly the whole discussion presented on the CBC page treats the
            document as if there were no connection between it and the document
            mentioned by Irenaeus. Irenaeus is fairly clear on what to expect
            from the Cainite Gospel of Judas, so discovery of an actual copy of
            the Cainite gospel shouldn't be expected to give us many surprises.
            Rather it would add depth to our knowledge about this particular
            Gnostic group.

            In some ways, it appears many people are treating this document as a
            new 'Gospel of Thomas', which it clearly is not. I would posit that
            the Gospel of Judas is no more historical (and perhaps no less
            historical) than the Drasha dYahya used/preserved by the Mandaeans.
            If someone suddenly becomes interested in the Drasha dYahya, will we
            soon be seeing debates over whether or not IT supports or rejects
            Christian tradtion?

            To redundantly reiterate--if this is the Cainite Gospel of Judas, we
            should expect, given Irenaeus' description, both a presentation of
            Gnostic doctrine and a presentation of Judas in a positive light. If
            either Judas is presented as a dupe or a villain, or if there is no
            trace of Gnostic doctrine in the document, then we most likely don't
            have the aforementioned Cainite gospel. If the presentation of Judas
            is unclear, but if there are clear evidences of Cainite teachings,
            then the secondary evidence (Cainite doctrines) would support a pro-
            Judas interpretation of the controversial sections.

            Be Well,
            Bob Griffin
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... All this does is point out that relying on what the media says as the source of your claims for what scholars have or have not said with respect to the
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 5, 2006
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              Robert Griffin wrote:

              > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
              > <jgibson000@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Robert Griffin wrote:
              > >
              > > > PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the scholars
              > > > doesn't include the question of whether this book is the Gospel of
              > > > Judas used by the Cainites.
              > > >
              > >
              > > What makes you think this isn't included?
              > >
              > > Jeffrey Gibson
              > > --
              > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              > > Chicago, Illinois
              > > e-mail jgibson000@...
              >
              > The CBC News story at http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-
              > scholars.html entirely ignores the fact that if this is indeed the
              > Gospel of Judas mentioned by Irenaeus, Judas is likely to be
              > presented as a spiritual revolutionary and hero rather than as a
              > villain or a dupe. If we have enough of the document, and if it is
              > indeed the Cainite Gospel of Judas, then I would expect to find some
              > clearer evidences of Cainite (or at least Gnostic) teachings.

              All this does is point out that relying on what the media says as the source of
              your claims for what scholars have or have not said with respect to the Gospel of
              Judas (or any other topic) is as hazardous as it is methodologically unsound.

              I suggest that before you make such global claims about what scholars have and
              have not said, you avoid relying for your claims on second hand reports of what
              they have or have not said, and instead go straight to the works of the scholars
              themselves.

              Jeffrey Gibson
              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Robert Griffin
              ... scholars ... Gospel of ... http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas- ... is ... some ... the source of ... the Gospel of ... methodologically
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 6, 2006
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                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Robert Griffin wrote:
                >
                > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                > > <jgibson000@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Robert Griffin wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > PS I'm somewhat surprised that the argument between the
                scholars
                > > > > doesn't include the question of whether this book is the
                Gospel of
                > > > > Judas used by the Cainites.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > What makes you think this isn't included?
                > > >
                > > > Jeffrey Gibson
                > > > --
                > > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                > > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                > > > Chicago, Illinois
                > > > e-mail jgibson000@
                > >
                > > The CBC News story at
                http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-
                > > scholars.html entirely ignores the fact that if this is indeed the
                > > Gospel of Judas mentioned by Irenaeus, Judas is likely to be
                > > presented as a spiritual revolutionary and hero rather than as a
                > > villain or a dupe. If we have enough of the document, and if it
                is
                > > indeed the Cainite Gospel of Judas, then I would expect to find
                some
                > > clearer evidences of Cainite (or at least Gnostic) teachings.
                >
                > All this does is point out that relying on what the media says as
                the source of
                > your claims for what scholars have or have not said with respect to
                the Gospel of
                > Judas (or any other topic) is as hazardous as it is
                methodologically unsound.
                >
                > I suggest that before you make such global claims about what
                scholars have and
                > have not said, you avoid relying for your claims on second hand
                reports of what
                > they have or have not said, and instead go straight to the works of
                the scholars
                > themselves.
                >
                > Jeffrey Gibson
                > --
                > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                > Chicago, Illinois
                > e-mail jgibson000@...
                >
                Correction taken to heart. Since I don't work in the field, and am
                short on both money and time, I will ask the list community if the
                current discussion over re-assessment of the role of Judas in the
                betrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of Judas involves also a re-
                assessment of whether a) this manuscript is indeed a copy of the
                Cainite Gospel of Judas and/or b) Irenaeus et al. actually
                misunderstood the Cainite Gospel of Judas.

                My own observations are as follows:
                The three characteristic Gnostic figures in the text of the Gospel of
                Judas (Barbelos, Saklas, Ialdabaoth) are not specifically Cainite,
                and I found no occurence of the word/name 'Hysteros' (referring to
                the prime Cainite diety, according to Irenaeus, if I read him
                correctly). So, from that point of view, this work might not be the
                same that Irenaeus wrote about. On the other hand, it is clearly a
                Gnostic document, and equally clearly treats Judas in roughly the
                same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas.

                Thanks for any input.

                Be Well,
                Bob Griffin
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