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  • Jim West
    The Canadian Broadcasting company has a great write-up today http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-scholars.html Some scholars are refuting an
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 4, 2006
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      The Canadian Broadcasting company has a great write-up today

      http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/04/judas-scholars.html

      Some scholars are refuting an interpretation of a 1,700-year-old
      document claiming to prove that Judas was a hero and not a villain.

      and

      "The big headline was in April that the text was discovered," Evans said.

      "The second big headline is right now: oops, maybe we misinterpreted it
      and we need to rethink it."


      read the whole thing. and theres a nice photo of the ms.


      --
      Jim West, ThD

      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
      http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
    • David Hindley
      Bob Griffin said:
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 7, 2006
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        Bob Griffin said:

        <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas.>>

        I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?

        Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.

        Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he describes in any but a general way.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio USA
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        ... Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic? Jeffery Hodges University Degrees: Ph.D., History,
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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          David Hindley wrote:

          >>I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<

          Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?

          Jeffery Hodges


          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim West
          ... I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John. Best Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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            Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
            > David Hindley wrote:
            >
            >>> I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<
            >
            > Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?
            >
            > Jeffery Hodges

            I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John.

            Best

            Jim


            --
            Jim West, ThD

            http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
            http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Thanks, Jim, you must be right. I d been reading the posts, but perhaps not closely enough. Jeffery Hodges Jim West wrote: ... I think
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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              Thanks, Jim, you must be right. I'd been reading the posts, but perhaps not closely enough.

              Jeffery Hodges

              Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:


              Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
              > David Hindley wrote:
              >
              >>> I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") ...<<
              >
              > Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?
              >
              > Jeffery Hodges

              I think GofJ = Gospel of Judas in this instance. Not Gospel of John.

              Best

              Jim


              --
              Jim West, ThD

              http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
              http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog


              The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

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              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Blog:

              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Department of English Language and Literature
              Korea University
              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              Seoul
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
              Sinnae-dong 795
              Jungrang-gu
              Seoul 131-770
              South Korea

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Griffin
              ... clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated in the Gospel of Thomas. ... what you mean by the latter half of your statement
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" <dhindley@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Bob Griffin said:
                >
                > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                >
                > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?

                I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                not revealed to the other disciples.
                In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                referred.

                >
                > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                >
                > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                describes in any but a general way.
                >
                > Respectfully,
                >
                > Dave Hindley
                > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                >
                I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                over a period of time.

                Be Well,
                Bob Griffin
              • David C. Hindley
                Jeffrey, That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel, I m sure, most everybody will agree is Gnostic . Dave ...
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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                  Jeffrey,

                  That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel,
                  I'm sure, most everybody will agree is "Gnostic".

                  Dave

                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges

                  <<Maybe this is not the proper listserve to ask, but why do you think
                  that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?>>
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Thanks. Jim also pointed this out. I guess that I m not as alert this weekend, having gotten a cold. Jeffery Hodges David C. Hindley
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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                    Thanks. Jim also pointed this out. I guess that I'm not as alert this weekend, having gotten a cold.

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    "David C. Hindley" <dhindley@...> wrote:
                    Jeffrey,

                    That stood for Gospel of Judas, the subject of the post. THAT gospel,
                    I'm sure, most everybody will agree is "Gnostic".

                    Dave

                    --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges

                    <that the Gospel of John is Gnostic?>>





                    The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

                    To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                    Yahoo! Groups Links






                    University Degrees:

                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                    (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                    Email Address:

                    jefferyhodges@...

                    Blog:

                    http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                    Office Address:

                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Department of English Language and Literature
                    Korea University
                    136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                    Seoul
                    South Korea

                    Home Address:

                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                    Sinnae-dong 795
                    Jungrang-gu
                    Seoul 131-770
                    South Korea

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • dbockdts
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Bob Griffin said:
                      > >
                      > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                      > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                      > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                      > >
                      > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                      > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                      > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                      > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                      > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                      > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                      >
                      > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                      > not revealed to the other disciples.
                      > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                      > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                      > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                      > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                      > referred.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                      > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                      > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                      > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                      > >
                      > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                      > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                      > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                      > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                      > describes in any but a general way.
                      > >
                      > > Respectfully,
                      > >
                      > > Dave Hindley
                      > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                      > >
                      > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                      > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                      > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                      > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                      > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                      > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                      > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                      > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                      > over a period of time.
                      >
                      > Be Well,
                      > Bob Griffin
                      >
                    • dbockdts
                      To all: A few quick thoughts: 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times)
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                        To all:

                        A few quick thoughts:

                        1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
                        developed one) and the laughing Jesus (four times) characteristic of
                        such texts (to mention 2 key features).

                        2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnostic text if not a Cainite
                        Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

                        3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
                        close relative given the take on Judas.

                        4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
                        prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
                        Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
                        told lest they burn.

                        Darrell Bock


                        --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Bob Griffin said:
                        > > >
                        > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                        > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                        > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                        > > >
                        > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                        > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                        > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                        > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                        > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                        > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                        > >
                        > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                        > > not revealed to the other disciples.
                        > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                        > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                        > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                        > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                        > > referred.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                        > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                        > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                        > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                        > > >
                        > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                        > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                        > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                        > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                        > > describes in any but a general way.
                        > > >
                        > > > Respectfully,
                        > > >
                        > > > Dave Hindley
                        > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                        > > >
                        > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                        > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                        > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                        > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                        > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                        > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                        > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                        > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                        > > over a period of time.
                        > >
                        > > Be Well,
                        > > Bob Griffin
                        > >
                        >
                      • dbockdts
                        ... 1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to mention 2 key
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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                          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "dbockdts" <DBockDTS@...> wrote:
                          1) The G of Jd is a Gnostic gospel as it has the cosmology (a very
                          developed one) and the laughing Jesus characteristic of such texts (to
                          mention 2 key features).

                          2) The G of Jd is at the least a Sethian Gnsotic text if not a Cainite
                          Gnostic text as Seth is listed among the luminaries.

                          3) The text is likely the one Ireneaus mentioned or one that is a
                          close relative given the take on Judas.

                          4) As far as Thomas-Judas comparison, the claim that Thomas is not so
                          prominent in Thomas ignores the very important saying 13, where only
                          Thomas understands who Jesus is and the other apostles are not being
                          told lest they burn.

                          Darrell Bock


                          > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Griffin" <muggleorsquib@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "David Hindley" dhindley@
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Bob Griffin said:
                          > > >
                          > > > <<On the other hand, it is clearly a Gnostic document, and equally
                          > > clearly treats Judas in roughly the same manner as Thomas is treated
                          > > in the Gospel of Thomas.>>
                          > > >
                          > > > I'd agree that the GoJ is Gnostic (capital "G") but I'm not sure
                          > > what you mean by the latter half of your statement above. The GoT is
                          > > not clearly Gnostic (capital "G"). Although it employs some terms
                          > > popular in Gnostic literature, it does not seem to employ any of the
                          > > Gnostic myths. Thomas is hardly mentioned other than in the first
                          > > saying. Do you mean he is treated as a revealer of secret things?
                          > >
                          > > I mean he is treated as the recipient of secret knowledge, which was
                          > > not revealed to the other disciples.
                          > > In other words, even if we ignore the title, we are presented with a
                          > > Gnostic gospel which treats Judas as the special recipient of secret
                          > > knowledge. This suggests to me the probability that we are looking
                          > > at a recension of the Cainite Gospel of Judas to which Irenaeus
                          > > referred.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Besides, should we take Irenaeus' descriptions too seriously? He
                          > > wasn't lampooning them to the extent that some other heresy critics
                          > > of the 2nd & 3rd centuries did, but he did seem to take delight in
                          > > scoffing at their teachings in a fairly superficial manner.
                          > > >
                          > > > Then again, he seems to have fairly accurately described
                          > > Valentinian teachings. Was he as equally aware of other Gnostic myths
                          > > as he was Valentinian ones? Still, I do not believe any of the
                          > > recently recovered documents contain myths that match those he
                          > > describes in any but a general way.
                          > > >
                          > > > Respectfully,
                          > > >
                          > > > Dave Hindley
                          > > > Cleveland, Ohio USA
                          > > >
                          > > I noticed definite differences between the cosmology/cosmogony in the
                          > > Gospel of Judas and that attributed to the Cainites by Irenaeus, but
                          > > didn't take the time to analyze the differences.
                          > > I am wondering whether just as we have differences between the
                          > > Oxyrhyncus Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas, there were also
                          > > varying recensions of other works, such as the Gospel of Judas. A
                          > > modern parallel would be the variations in New Age/Aquarian teachings
                          > > both between various New Age teachers and by a particular teacher
                          > > over a period of time.
                          > >
                          > > Be Well,
                          > > Bob Griffin
                          > >
                          >
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