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Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?

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  • leeedgartyler@cox.net
    ... snipped for brevity ... Jack. it seems to me that these two nontraditional views synthesize nicely. The notion that Jesus was from a relatively affluent
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 20, 2006
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      ---- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Bob Schacht" <bobschacht@...>
      > To: "CrossTalk" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:48 PM
      > Subject: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?
      >
      >
      > > During the past 20 years, Jesus has been cast in a variety of major roles,
      > > often in book-length development: Jesus the Teacher, Jesus the Magician,
      > > Jesus the Healer, Jesus the Prophet, etc. Notice how all of these are
      > > Power
      > > roles. One might add Jesus the Cynic, which may or may not be a power
      > > role,
      > > depending on your perspective!
      > >
      > > Now comes another idea, that intrigues me.
      > >
      > > Bruce Grindal, a Professor of Anthropology at Florida State University,
      > > wrote an article in the November 2006 issue of Anthropology News (Vol 47
      > > #8) entitled "Beggars, the Ancestors and Jesus" (p.15). After reciting an
      > > experience with a beggar in Accra (West Africa), he tells of an experience
      > > in a (Black?) church in Florida on the Second Coming, speculating on what
      > > form Jesus would return in. His conclusion: He would come back as a
      > > mendicant, "a person who lives by the charity of others." No formal
      > > exegesis was revealed, but the idea nonetheless intrigues.
      > >

      snipped for brevity

      Jack to Bob:
      >
      > I think Jesus was from a wealthy family...may have been the contrite
      > "prodigal son" whose mission was a family enterprise. He has cousins as
      > disciples, brothers, aunts and his mother nearby throughout his mission.
      > Part of his contrition may have been his disdain of wealth. After all, if
      > he was the prodigal son, look what it did to him. All of the things he may
      > have done when he was "prodigal" convinced him (when he was repentant) that
      > it is harder for a rich man to get to heaven than for a camel...well, you
      > know the rest.
      >
      > Although my position is opposite of the mendicant position, I like thinking
      > outside the "traditional" views.
      >
      >
      > Jack
      >
      > Jack Kilmon
      > San Antonio, Texas


      Jack. it seems to me that these two "nontraditional" views synthesize nicely. The notion that Jesus was from a relatively affluent family can account for his erudition; but rich kids have been known to take a course of voluntary poverty. A chosen mendicancy accounts for such sayings as "the Son of Man has no place to lay his head" and the fact that Jesus appears to be flat broke in the "give unto Caesar" pericope and has to have the Pharisees produce a coin with Caesar's image upon it.

      At any rate, if Jesus' family were well off, it doesn't exclude him from taking up mendicancy along with his ministry. Indeed, it makes the mendicancy rather likely, considering what you note he has to say about wealth.

      Ed Tyler
    • Tony Buglass
      Jack Kilmon wrote: I think Jesus was from a wealthy family...may have been the contrite prodigal son whose mission was a family enterprise. Interesting. For
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 20, 2006
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        Jack Kilmon wrote:
        I think Jesus was from a wealthy family...may have been the contrite
        "prodigal son" whose mission was a family enterprise.

        Interesting. For years, I heard folk talk about Joseph having his own business, so in British terms he'd be sort of well-off middle-class-ish (the kind of interpretations you'd get from middle-class Brits, I suppose - stuck out a bit for me as a definitely working-class Brit, at least in my origins!) Then I read Crossan, talking about ceramics as evidence for the growth of local industry in urbanisation and loss of land, ie landless peasants had to earn their way through a trade. That meant that carpentry wasn't an indication of prosperity and higher social class, rather of a landless refugee family having to make their way. Now, you're suggesting he wasn't from a poor peasant background, but a wealthy one. Back to where we started from?

        I suppose Joseph could have done very nicely out of his enforced trade - especially if he profitted from the growth of the new cities at Sepphoris and Tiberias. But Nazareth in the 20s was a very poor place, if the reconstructions in Crossan and Reed "Excavating Jesus" are anything to go by. Capernaum was obviously the place to be - so how does the theory of a wealthy clan fit in with theories of origins in Nazareth?

        I'm intrigued to see how this new angle illuminates the story...

        Cheers,
        Rev Tony Buglass
        Superintendent Minister
        Upper Calder Methodist Circuit

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant? ... Makes
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 20, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <leeedgartyler@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 2:35 PM
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?


          >
          > ---- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: "Bob Schacht" <bobschacht@...>
          >> To: "CrossTalk" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:48 PM
          >> Subject: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?
          >>
          >>
          >> > During the past 20 years, Jesus has been cast in a variety of major
          >> > roles,
          >> > often in book-length development: Jesus the Teacher, Jesus the
          >> > Magician,
          >> > Jesus the Healer, Jesus the Prophet, etc. Notice how all of these are
          >> > Power
          >> > roles. One might add Jesus the Cynic, which may or may not be a power
          >> > role,
          >> > depending on your perspective!
          >> >
          >> > Now comes another idea, that intrigues me.
          >> >
          >> > Bruce Grindal, a Professor of Anthropology at Florida State University,
          >> > wrote an article in the November 2006 issue of Anthropology News (Vol
          >> > 47
          >> > #8) entitled "Beggars, the Ancestors and Jesus" (p.15). After reciting
          >> > an
          >> > experience with a beggar in Accra (West Africa), he tells of an
          >> > experience
          >> > in a (Black?) church in Florida on the Second Coming, speculating on
          >> > what
          >> > form Jesus would return in. His conclusion: He would come back as a
          >> > mendicant, "a person who lives by the charity of others." No formal
          >> > exegesis was revealed, but the idea nonetheless intrigues.
          >> >
          >
          > snipped for brevity
          >
          > Jack to Bob:
          >>
          >> I think Jesus was from a wealthy family...may have been the contrite
          >> "prodigal son" whose mission was a family enterprise. He has cousins as
          >> disciples, brothers, aunts and his mother nearby throughout his mission.
          >> Part of his contrition may have been his disdain of wealth. After all,
          >> if
          >> he was the prodigal son, look what it did to him. All of the things he
          >> may
          >> have done when he was "prodigal" convinced him (when he was repentant)
          >> that
          >> it is harder for a rich man to get to heaven than for a camel...well, you
          >> know the rest.
          >>
          >> Although my position is opposite of the mendicant position, I like
          >> thinking
          >> outside the "traditional" views.
          >>
          >>
          >> Jack
          >>
          >> Jack Kilmon
          >> San Antonio, Texas
          >
          >
          > Jack. it seems to me that these two "nontraditional" views synthesize
          > nicely. The notion that Jesus was from a relatively affluent family can
          > account for his erudition; but rich kids have been known to take a course
          > of voluntary poverty. A chosen mendicancy accounts for such sayings as
          > "the Son of Man has no place to lay his head" and the fact that Jesus
          > appears to be flat broke in the "give unto Caesar" pericope and has to
          > have the Pharisees produce a coin with Caesar's image upon it.
          >
          > At any rate, if Jesus' family were well off, it doesn't exclude him from
          > taking up mendicancy along with his ministry. Indeed, it makes the
          > mendicancy rather likely, considering what you note he has to say about
          > wealth.
          >
          > Ed Tyler


          Makes sense, Ed. Much like Prince Siddartha.

          Jack
        • John Sabatino
          Jack wrote: So we learn that Matthew and James were the sons of Clopas/Alphaeus and his wife Mary. John: What leads you to equate Matthew with Levi, son of
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 20, 2006
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            Jack wrote:

            So we learn that Matthew and James were the sons of Clopas/Alphaeus and his
            wife Mary.



            John: What leads you to equate Matthew with Levi, son of Alphaeus?



            Thx,

            John Sabatino

            Austin, TX



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: John Sabatino To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 5:12 PM Subject: RE: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 22, 2006
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Sabatino" <taurus78@...>
              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 5:12 PM
              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?


              >
              >
              > Jack wrote:
              >
              > So we learn that Matthew and James were the sons of Clopas/Alphaeus and
              > his
              > wife Mary.
              >
              >
              >
              > John: What leads you to equate Matthew with Levi, son of Alphaeus?
              >
              >
              >
              > Thx,
              >
              > John Sabatino
              >
              > Austin, TX


              Mark 2:14, Luke 5:27 and then Matrthew 9:9. Also Jerome, Preface to the
              Commentaries on Matthew:

              The first evangelist is Matthew, the publican, who was surnamed Levi. He
              published his Gospel in Jud├Ža in the Hebrew language, chiefly for the sake
              of Jewish believers in Christ, who adhered in vain to the shadow of the law,
              although the substance of the Gospel had come.

              Jack

              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, Texas
            • Jack Kilmon
              ... From: Tony Buglass To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 24, 2006
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Tony Buglass" <tonybuglass@...>
                To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 4:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Mendicant?


                > Jack Kilmon wrote:
                > I think Jesus was from a wealthy family...may have been the contrite
                > "prodigal son" whose mission was a family enterprise.
                >
                > Interesting. For years, I heard folk talk about Joseph having his own
                > business, so in British terms he'd be sort of well-off middle-class-ish
                > (the kind of interpretations you'd get from middle-class Brits, I
                > suppose - stuck out a bit for me as a definitely working-class Brit, at
                > least in my origins!) Then I read Crossan, talking about ceramics as
                > evidence for the growth of local industry in urbanisation and loss of
                > land, ie landless peasants had to earn their way through a trade. That
                > meant that carpentry wasn't an indication of prosperity and higher social
                > class, rather of a landless refugee family having to make their way. Now,
                > you're suggesting he wasn't from a poor peasant background, but a wealthy
                > one. Back to where we started from?
                >
                > I suppose Joseph could have done very nicely out of his enforced trade -
                > especially if he profitted from the growth of the new cities at Sepphoris
                > and Tiberias. But Nazareth in the 20s was a very poor place, if the
                > reconstructions in Crossan and Reed "Excavating Jesus" are anything to go
                > by. Capernaum was obviously the place to be - so how does the theory of a
                > wealthy clan fit in with theories of origins in Nazareth?
                >
                > I'm intrigued to see how this new angle illuminates the story...
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Rev Tony Buglass
                > Superintendent Minister
                > Upper Calder Methodist Circuit


                If the residence in Nazareth is historical and not an historicized Matthean
                error (There is no prophecy in the OT that the Messiah would be called a
                Nazarene) or a play on the "branch" (Netser) from the stump of Jesse in
                Isaiah, the only advantage for living there would be its close proximity to
                Sepphoris. Many building projects in Sepphoris at the time of Jesus' youth
                would have kept a building contractor lucratively busy. According to the
                Protevangelium of James, Sepphoris was the residence of Jesus maternal
                grandparents. These building projects would have begun in the rebuilding
                of Sepphoris by Antipas until late in 4 BCE given the city's destruction
                earlier that year by Varus. Stone masonry was one of the skills of a tekton
                and Nazareth is known for its ancient stone quarry. It would have made more
                sense to live near the stone resource and cart the quarried blocks to
                Sepphoris. I look to "stonemason's language" as in Matthew 16:18 and the
                stone/cornerstone language of Mt. 21:42/Mk12:10 and GoT #66. Perhaps the
                carpentry and stone mason's hand can be found when splitting wood and
                lifting stone (GoT #77).

                Jack


                Jack Kilmon
                San Antonio, Texas
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