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Re: [XTalk] Re: One in the eye for an unjust judge

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  • Tony Buglass
    Steve Davies wrote: It would seem to me that the parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for God. [snipped] I suspect that the
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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      Steve Davies wrote:
      It would seem to me that the
      parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
      God. [snipped] I suspect that the
      original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
      allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
      Chosen-People/Woman.
      But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
      the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?

      Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it? Which doesn't mean that in some original version of the story the judge is not used to refer to God in some other metaphorical device. (Bit vague, I know, but it *is* Monday morning...)

      For my money, the application is 18:7, not 18:8; it's a "how much more" type of story (cf Lk.11:13) - ie if such a dodgy character as this judge will eventualy do as he is asked, how much more will your loving heavenly Father answer your prayers. Whether the original saying was part of the story as Luke shapes it, to deal with his church's concerns over parousia-delay, is another question. But the image of a feisty widow losing it with a bad judge and smacking him in the eye - sounds like exactly the kind of cartoon-image Jesus would have used to get the crowd going. In a different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry cartoons...

      Cheers,
      Rev Tony Buglass
      Superintendent Minister
      Upper Calder Methodist Circuit



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ernest Pennells
      [Tony Buglass] ... cartoons... I like it, Tony [Tony Buglass] ... Then what have translators been feeding us all these years? I want my Tom and Jerry!
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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        [Tony Buglass]
        >In a different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry
        cartoons...

        I like it, Tony

        [Tony Buglass]
        >Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it?

        Then what have translators been feeding us all these years? I want my Tom
        and Jerry!

        Regards,

        Ernie Pennells,
        220-50 Songhees Road,
        Victoria BC,
        Canada V9A 7J4

        Tel: (1) 250 - 381 5676



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gordon Raynal
        Hi Tony, Steve and Ernie, ... I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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          Hi Tony, Steve and Ernie,
          On Nov 6, 2006, at 4:40 AM, Tony Buglass wrote:

          > Steve Davies wrote:
          > It would seem to me that the
          > parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
          > God. [snipped] I suspect that the
          > original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
          > allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
          > Chosen-People/Woman.
          > But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
          > the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?
          >
          > Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it? Which doesn't
          > mean that in some original version of the story the judge is not
          > used to refer to God in some other metaphorical device. (Bit
          > vague, I know, but it *is* Monday morning...)
          >
          > For my money, the application is 18:7, not 18:8; it's a "how much
          > more" type of story (cf Lk.11:13) - ie if such a dodgy character as
          > this judge will eventualy do as he is asked, how much more will
          > your loving heavenly Father answer your prayers. Whether the
          > original saying was part of the story as Luke shapes it, to deal
          > with his church's concerns over parousia-delay, is another
          > question. But the image of a feisty widow losing it with a bad
          > judge and smacking him in the eye - sounds like exactly the kind of
          > cartoon-image Jesus would have used to get the crowd going. In a
          > different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry
          > cartoons...
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Rev Tony Buglass
          > Superintendent Minister
          > Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
          >
          >
          I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner
          and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
          ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
          (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
          etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
          stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
          writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
          it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
          widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
          oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
          concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
          brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
          God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
          distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
          NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and again!

          Gordon Raynal
          Inman, SC
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion, is a friend of mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from me).
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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            Gordon Raynal wrote:

            > I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner
            > and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
            > ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
            > (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
            > etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
            > stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
            > writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
            > it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
            > widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
            > oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
            > concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
            > brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
            > God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
            > distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
            > NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and again!

            FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion, is a friend of
            mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from me). I'll ask
            her if she wants to come on board and join this discussion.

            Jeffrey

            P.S. I'm still waiting for responses from XTalkers about attendance at SBL.

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Gordon Raynal
            Hi Jeffrey, Will be interested in her comments. See you in a couple of weeks. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 7, 2006
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              Hi Jeffrey,
              Will be interested in her comments.
              See you in a couple of weeks.
              Gordon Raynal
              Inman, SC
              On Nov 6, 2006, at 7:20 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gordon Raynal wrote:
              >
              >> I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target.
              >> Road Runner
              >> and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
              >> ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
              >> (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
              >> etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
              >> stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
              >> writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
              >> it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
              >> widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
              >> oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
              >> concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
              >> brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
              >> God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
              >> distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
              >> NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and
              >> again!
              >
              > FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion,
              > is a friend of
              > mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from
              > me). I'll ask
              > her if she wants to come on board and join this discussion.
              >
              > Jeffrey
              >
              > P.S. I'm still waiting for responses from XTalkers about
              > attendance at SBL.
              >
              > --
              > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              > Chicago, Illinois
              > e-mail jgibson000@...
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Peter Kirby
              Hello XTalkers, You may have heard of the Open Scrolls Project before, and you would know, then, that it hasn t done much to get off the ground. I believe
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                Hello XTalkers,

                You may have heard of "the Open Scrolls Project" before, and you would
                know, then, that it hasn't done much to get off the ground. I believe
                that this is because the model of volunteer contributions of translation
                time is not the most efficient, because it puts an extraordinary burden
                on a few individuals (those who are able to translate Aramaic, Greek,
                and Hebrew) without due compensation.

                I believe that a better model would be to establish a fund out of which
                the qualified translators can be paid for the service they render.
                Then, people would be able to contribute their money to this fund, with
                the expectation that even a little bit of money will result in some of
                the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and transcribed--and available for
                free--that were not before.

                I would hope that individuals interested in the result would be
                contributors, but also corporations that sell Bible software packages
                that do not currently include the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they would be
                reaping the financial rewards of the result. I would definitely contact
                them for their sponsorship, in addition to the public.

                If you go to the website,

                http://www.openscrolls.org/

                You will see that I am currently looking for a few things to get off the
                ground:

                First, I need two other people to serve on the Board of Directors for
                Open Scrolls, Inc. I would prefer people who have academic credentials
                (to compensate for my lack of such), but also an enthusiasm for the
                project. The Board of Directors may or may not be paid for their time,
                but would at least be able to recoup any expenses incurred.

                Second, I need one to three people to serve as an editorial review for
                the work of translation. They would be responsible for quality
                control. They would be paid along with the translators. (Someone may
                serve on both the BoD and the editoral review, especially if they'd like
                to be paid. I myself won't be on the editorial review board.) The size
                of the editorial review board is a function of each person's available
                time; if we get one person with a lot of time, we may not need the other
                two.

                Third, I need contacts for people wanting to be paid for the work of
                transcription and translation working off the photocopies in the
                "Discoveries in the Judean Desert" series (DJD). I could potentially
                use up to a dozen such people, subdividing out the actual work of
                translation and transcription.

                Fourth, I could use the help of a web developer or web designer for the
                initial OpenScrolls.org website. This is not crucial; OpenScrolls.org
                will be a homebase for the distribution of the texts, but other channels
                will distribute the texts also. In a pinch I can do this work.

                Fifth, I need the comments of people like you on CrossTalk! What needs
                to be done so that this venture succeeds? You might know something I
                don't, so, enlighten me!

                In particular...

                What's the best license for the resulting transcription and
                translation? The main decision here is, should the result be fully
                public domain, or should the result by licensed under a "Creative
                Commons" or other open-type license? Please weigh in if you are
                familiar with the advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage (to
                me) of the latter, a license of some kind, is that you can control
                versioning (a modification has to be marked as a modification, etc.) and
                attribution (OpenScrolls.org and its translators must be credited).

                What's the best way to solicit contributions? Maybe you know something
                I don't about the world of getting funding for research or educational
                projects, such as this one basically is.

                thanks,
                Peter Kirby

                PS-- The Open Scrolls website is already ranking #14 or so for the term
                "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Google. I am certain that it will make it to the
                first page of the search results as soon as some serious content can be
                found there. It is, therefore, a very good spot to position the
                transcription and translation effort described above.
              • Lisbeth S. Fried
                Hi Peter, Do I get paid for the work I already did???? Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around. Liz Fried _____ From:
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                  Hi Peter,

                  Do I get paid for the work I already did????



                  Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around.

                  Liz Fried



                  _____

                  From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Kirby
                  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:50 AM
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [XTalk] Dead Sea Scrolls online? the Open Scrolls project



                  Hello XTalkers,

                  You may have heard of "the Open Scrolls Project" before, and you would
                  know, then, that it hasn't done much to get off the ground. I believe
                  that this is because the model of volunteer contributions of translation
                  time is not the most efficient, because it puts an extraordinary burden
                  on a few individuals (those who are able to translate Aramaic, Greek,
                  and Hebrew) without due compensation.

                  I believe that a better model would be to establish a fund out of which
                  the qualified translators can be paid for the service they render.
                  Then, people would be able to contribute their money to this fund, with
                  the expectation that even a little bit of money will result in some of
                  the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and transcribed--and available for
                  free--that were not before.

                  I would hope that individuals interested in the result would be
                  contributors, but also corporations that sell Bible software packages
                  that do not currently include the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they would be
                  reaping the financial rewards of the result. I would definitely contact
                  them for their sponsorship, in addition to the public.

                  If you go to the website,

                  http://www.openscro <http://www.openscrolls.org/> lls.org/

                  You will see that I am currently looking for a few things to get off the
                  ground:

                  First, I need two other people to serve on the Board of Directors for
                  Open Scrolls, Inc. I would prefer people who have academic credentials
                  (to compensate for my lack of such), but also an enthusiasm for the
                  project. The Board of Directors may or may not be paid for their time,
                  but would at least be able to recoup any expenses incurred.

                  Second, I need one to three people to serve as an editorial review for
                  the work of translation. They would be responsible for quality
                  control. They would be paid along with the translators. (Someone may
                  serve on both the BoD and the editoral review, especially if they'd like
                  to be paid. I myself won't be on the editorial review board.) The size
                  of the editorial review board is a function of each person's available
                  time; if we get one person with a lot of time, we may not need the other
                  two.

                  Third, I need contacts for people wanting to be paid for the work of
                  transcription and translation working off the photocopies in the
                  "Discoveries in the Judean Desert" series (DJD). I could potentially
                  use up to a dozen such people, subdividing out the actual work of
                  translation and transcription.

                  Fourth, I could use the help of a web developer or web designer for the
                  initial OpenScrolls.org website. This is not crucial; OpenScrolls.org
                  will be a homebase for the distribution of the texts, but other channels
                  will distribute the texts also. In a pinch I can do this work.

                  Fifth, I need the comments of people like you on CrossTalk! What needs
                  to be done so that this venture succeeds? You might know something I
                  don't, so, enlighten me!

                  In particular...

                  What's the best license for the resulting transcription and
                  translation? The main decision here is, should the result be fully
                  public domain, or should the result by licensed under a "Creative
                  Commons" or other open-type license? Please weigh in if you are
                  familiar with the advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage (to
                  me) of the latter, a license of some kind, is that you can control
                  versioning (a modification has to be marked as a modification, etc.) and
                  attribution (OpenScrolls.org and its translators must be credited).

                  What's the best way to solicit contributions? Maybe you know something
                  I don't about the world of getting funding for research or educational
                  projects, such as this one basically is.

                  thanks,
                  Peter Kirby

                  PS-- The Open Scrolls website is already ranking #14 or so for the term
                  "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Google. I am certain that it will make it to the
                  first page of the search results as soon as some serious content can be
                  found there. It is, therefore, a very good spot to position the
                  transcription and translation effort described above.





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Peter Kirby
                  ... I don t see why not, if you are willing to become one of the translators / transcribers when the Open Scrolls project officially launches. Just resubmit
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                    Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                    > Hi Peter,
                    >
                    > Do I get paid for the work I already did????
                    >
                    I don't see why not, if you are willing to become one of the translators
                    / transcribers when the Open Scrolls project officially launches. Just
                    resubmit the translation work you had done at that time.
                    > Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around.
                    >
                    > Liz Fried
                    The Accordance software's translation, transcription, and index costs $120.

                    The Logos software's transcription costs $80.

                    The hardcopy books edited by Florentino García Martínez cost about $100
                    and cannot be searched.

                    There are other costs associated with getting Accordance or Logos up and
                    running, usually some several hundred dollars. Many people do not have
                    several hundred dollars to spend on getting the Dead Sea Scrolls
                    searchable and available in the original language.

                    The advantages of the Open Scrolls project are that the result would:

                    * Be free.
                    * Include a transcription (critical text).
                    * Include a translation (not even this is on the Internet at present).
                    * Searchable at OpenScrolls.org or at any other site choosing to host it.
                    * Integrated with popular free and low-cost Bible software packages (the
                    free "Sword" softwares, and the various ones you see on the shelf for
                    $50 or less)

                    I think that this more than justifies the project.

                    regards,
                    Peter Kirby
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