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[XTalk] Re: One in the eye for an unjust judge

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  • sdavies0
    ... pestered by the widow. Wendy Cotter takes this more literally as the judge feeling concerned that this determined and feisty woman might actually give
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 5, 2006
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      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Ernest Pennells" <pennells@...>
      wrote:

      > The key word in Lk. 18.5 is `UPWPIAZW (strike under the eye), which
      > translators have rendered metaphorically as the unjust judge being
      pestered > by the widow. Wendy Cotter takes this more literally as
      the judge feeling > concerned that this determined and feisty woman
      might actually give him a > black eye.

      >> My enquiry is therefore whether the customary metaphorical
      treatments have a > stronger claim than Cotter's fisticuffs.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Ernie Pennells,

      Well, I dunno. How's that for help? It would seem to me that the
      parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
      God. That doesn't seem likely to me in terms of the religious context
      of the times.

      Furthermore, the purpose of a judge is to hear a case, not to give in
      to pressure. This judge doesn't hear the case at all, but gives in.
      That fits his unrigheous character well, but doesn't make it likely
      that he is to be considered God. The woman is taking advantage of his
      unrighteousness by her strategy.

      For all we know the whining bitch doesn't have a case at all. I think
      of a particular instance at my college where public screaming
      (literally)and threatening-lawsuits repeatedly won the day for a
      woman who had not the slightest scrap of right on her side.

      As the judge is God, the woman, in turn, is said to be an allegory
      for God's chosen ones. Now, if they are already the chosen ones, they
      will already unjustly have God working for them against enemies who
      have just and righteous claims against them, as the OT oft
      reports to be the icase. I don't see any reason for anyone advancing
      the argument that God's chosen will get their way, rightly or
      wrongly, by physically threatening to assault God, although that is
      the case if the Bible's allegory is to be followed and we assume that
      strike under the eye is (more or less)literally meant.

      We are to keep whining to God and eventually, whether we are in the
      right or not, he'll give in just to get us to leave him alone....
      that's the relationship of God to His Chosen? I suspect that the
      original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
      allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
      Chosen-People/Woman.

      But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
      the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?

      I know, this letter doesn't help you with your question, but...
      well... there we are.

      Steve Davies
    • Tony Buglass
      Steve Davies wrote: It would seem to me that the parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for God. [snipped] I suspect that the
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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        Steve Davies wrote:
        It would seem to me that the
        parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
        God. [snipped] I suspect that the
        original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
        allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
        Chosen-People/Woman.
        But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
        the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?

        Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it? Which doesn't mean that in some original version of the story the judge is not used to refer to God in some other metaphorical device. (Bit vague, I know, but it *is* Monday morning...)

        For my money, the application is 18:7, not 18:8; it's a "how much more" type of story (cf Lk.11:13) - ie if such a dodgy character as this judge will eventualy do as he is asked, how much more will your loving heavenly Father answer your prayers. Whether the original saying was part of the story as Luke shapes it, to deal with his church's concerns over parousia-delay, is another question. But the image of a feisty widow losing it with a bad judge and smacking him in the eye - sounds like exactly the kind of cartoon-image Jesus would have used to get the crowd going. In a different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry cartoons...

        Cheers,
        Rev Tony Buglass
        Superintendent Minister
        Upper Calder Methodist Circuit



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ernest Pennells
        [Tony Buglass] ... cartoons... I like it, Tony [Tony Buglass] ... Then what have translators been feeding us all these years? I want my Tom and Jerry!
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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          [Tony Buglass]
          >In a different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry
          cartoons...

          I like it, Tony

          [Tony Buglass]
          >Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it?

          Then what have translators been feeding us all these years? I want my Tom
          and Jerry!

          Regards,

          Ernie Pennells,
          220-50 Songhees Road,
          Victoria BC,
          Canada V9A 7J4

          Tel: (1) 250 - 381 5676



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi Tony, Steve and Ernie, ... I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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            Hi Tony, Steve and Ernie,
            On Nov 6, 2006, at 4:40 AM, Tony Buglass wrote:

            > Steve Davies wrote:
            > It would seem to me that the
            > parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
            > God. [snipped] I suspect that the
            > original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
            > allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
            > Chosen-People/Woman.
            > But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
            > the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?
            >
            > Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it? Which doesn't
            > mean that in some original version of the story the judge is not
            > used to refer to God in some other metaphorical device. (Bit
            > vague, I know, but it *is* Monday morning...)
            >
            > For my money, the application is 18:7, not 18:8; it's a "how much
            > more" type of story (cf Lk.11:13) - ie if such a dodgy character as
            > this judge will eventualy do as he is asked, how much more will
            > your loving heavenly Father answer your prayers. Whether the
            > original saying was part of the story as Luke shapes it, to deal
            > with his church's concerns over parousia-delay, is another
            > question. But the image of a feisty widow losing it with a bad
            > judge and smacking him in the eye - sounds like exactly the kind of
            > cartoon-image Jesus would have used to get the crowd going. In a
            > different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry
            > cartoons...
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Rev Tony Buglass
            > Superintendent Minister
            > Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
            >
            >
            I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner
            and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
            ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
            (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
            etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
            stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
            writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
            it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
            widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
            oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
            concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
            brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
            God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
            distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
            NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and again!

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion, is a friend of mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from me).
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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              Gordon Raynal wrote:

              > I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner
              > and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
              > ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
              > (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
              > etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
              > stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
              > writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
              > it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
              > widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
              > oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
              > concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
              > brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
              > God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
              > distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
              > NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and again!

              FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion, is a friend of
              mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from me). I'll ask
              her if she wants to come on board and join this discussion.

              Jeffrey

              P.S. I'm still waiting for responses from XTalkers about attendance at SBL.

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Gordon Raynal
              Hi Jeffrey, Will be interested in her comments. See you in a couple of weeks. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 7, 2006
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                Hi Jeffrey,
                Will be interested in her comments.
                See you in a couple of weeks.
                Gordon Raynal
                Inman, SC
                On Nov 6, 2006, at 7:20 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                >
                >
                > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                >
                >> I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target.
                >> Road Runner
                >> and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
                >> ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
                >> (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
                >> etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
                >> stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
                >> writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
                >> it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
                >> widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
                >> oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
                >> concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
                >> brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
                >> God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
                >> distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
                >> NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and
                >> again!
                >
                > FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion,
                > is a friend of
                > mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from
                > me). I'll ask
                > her if she wants to come on board and join this discussion.
                >
                > Jeffrey
                >
                > P.S. I'm still waiting for responses from XTalkers about
                > attendance at SBL.
                >
                > --
                > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                > Chicago, Illinois
                > e-mail jgibson000@...
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Peter Kirby
                Hello XTalkers, You may have heard of the Open Scrolls Project before, and you would know, then, that it hasn t done much to get off the ground. I believe
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                  Hello XTalkers,

                  You may have heard of "the Open Scrolls Project" before, and you would
                  know, then, that it hasn't done much to get off the ground. I believe
                  that this is because the model of volunteer contributions of translation
                  time is not the most efficient, because it puts an extraordinary burden
                  on a few individuals (those who are able to translate Aramaic, Greek,
                  and Hebrew) without due compensation.

                  I believe that a better model would be to establish a fund out of which
                  the qualified translators can be paid for the service they render.
                  Then, people would be able to contribute their money to this fund, with
                  the expectation that even a little bit of money will result in some of
                  the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and transcribed--and available for
                  free--that were not before.

                  I would hope that individuals interested in the result would be
                  contributors, but also corporations that sell Bible software packages
                  that do not currently include the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they would be
                  reaping the financial rewards of the result. I would definitely contact
                  them for their sponsorship, in addition to the public.

                  If you go to the website,

                  http://www.openscrolls.org/

                  You will see that I am currently looking for a few things to get off the
                  ground:

                  First, I need two other people to serve on the Board of Directors for
                  Open Scrolls, Inc. I would prefer people who have academic credentials
                  (to compensate for my lack of such), but also an enthusiasm for the
                  project. The Board of Directors may or may not be paid for their time,
                  but would at least be able to recoup any expenses incurred.

                  Second, I need one to three people to serve as an editorial review for
                  the work of translation. They would be responsible for quality
                  control. They would be paid along with the translators. (Someone may
                  serve on both the BoD and the editoral review, especially if they'd like
                  to be paid. I myself won't be on the editorial review board.) The size
                  of the editorial review board is a function of each person's available
                  time; if we get one person with a lot of time, we may not need the other
                  two.

                  Third, I need contacts for people wanting to be paid for the work of
                  transcription and translation working off the photocopies in the
                  "Discoveries in the Judean Desert" series (DJD). I could potentially
                  use up to a dozen such people, subdividing out the actual work of
                  translation and transcription.

                  Fourth, I could use the help of a web developer or web designer for the
                  initial OpenScrolls.org website. This is not crucial; OpenScrolls.org
                  will be a homebase for the distribution of the texts, but other channels
                  will distribute the texts also. In a pinch I can do this work.

                  Fifth, I need the comments of people like you on CrossTalk! What needs
                  to be done so that this venture succeeds? You might know something I
                  don't, so, enlighten me!

                  In particular...

                  What's the best license for the resulting transcription and
                  translation? The main decision here is, should the result be fully
                  public domain, or should the result by licensed under a "Creative
                  Commons" or other open-type license? Please weigh in if you are
                  familiar with the advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage (to
                  me) of the latter, a license of some kind, is that you can control
                  versioning (a modification has to be marked as a modification, etc.) and
                  attribution (OpenScrolls.org and its translators must be credited).

                  What's the best way to solicit contributions? Maybe you know something
                  I don't about the world of getting funding for research or educational
                  projects, such as this one basically is.

                  thanks,
                  Peter Kirby

                  PS-- The Open Scrolls website is already ranking #14 or so for the term
                  "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Google. I am certain that it will make it to the
                  first page of the search results as soon as some serious content can be
                  found there. It is, therefore, a very good spot to position the
                  transcription and translation effort described above.
                • Lisbeth S. Fried
                  Hi Peter, Do I get paid for the work I already did???? Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around. Liz Fried _____ From:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                    Hi Peter,

                    Do I get paid for the work I already did????



                    Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around.

                    Liz Fried



                    _____

                    From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Kirby
                    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:50 AM
                    To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [XTalk] Dead Sea Scrolls online? the Open Scrolls project



                    Hello XTalkers,

                    You may have heard of "the Open Scrolls Project" before, and you would
                    know, then, that it hasn't done much to get off the ground. I believe
                    that this is because the model of volunteer contributions of translation
                    time is not the most efficient, because it puts an extraordinary burden
                    on a few individuals (those who are able to translate Aramaic, Greek,
                    and Hebrew) without due compensation.

                    I believe that a better model would be to establish a fund out of which
                    the qualified translators can be paid for the service they render.
                    Then, people would be able to contribute their money to this fund, with
                    the expectation that even a little bit of money will result in some of
                    the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and transcribed--and available for
                    free--that were not before.

                    I would hope that individuals interested in the result would be
                    contributors, but also corporations that sell Bible software packages
                    that do not currently include the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they would be
                    reaping the financial rewards of the result. I would definitely contact
                    them for their sponsorship, in addition to the public.

                    If you go to the website,

                    http://www.openscro <http://www.openscrolls.org/> lls.org/

                    You will see that I am currently looking for a few things to get off the
                    ground:

                    First, I need two other people to serve on the Board of Directors for
                    Open Scrolls, Inc. I would prefer people who have academic credentials
                    (to compensate for my lack of such), but also an enthusiasm for the
                    project. The Board of Directors may or may not be paid for their time,
                    but would at least be able to recoup any expenses incurred.

                    Second, I need one to three people to serve as an editorial review for
                    the work of translation. They would be responsible for quality
                    control. They would be paid along with the translators. (Someone may
                    serve on both the BoD and the editoral review, especially if they'd like
                    to be paid. I myself won't be on the editorial review board.) The size
                    of the editorial review board is a function of each person's available
                    time; if we get one person with a lot of time, we may not need the other
                    two.

                    Third, I need contacts for people wanting to be paid for the work of
                    transcription and translation working off the photocopies in the
                    "Discoveries in the Judean Desert" series (DJD). I could potentially
                    use up to a dozen such people, subdividing out the actual work of
                    translation and transcription.

                    Fourth, I could use the help of a web developer or web designer for the
                    initial OpenScrolls.org website. This is not crucial; OpenScrolls.org
                    will be a homebase for the distribution of the texts, but other channels
                    will distribute the texts also. In a pinch I can do this work.

                    Fifth, I need the comments of people like you on CrossTalk! What needs
                    to be done so that this venture succeeds? You might know something I
                    don't, so, enlighten me!

                    In particular...

                    What's the best license for the resulting transcription and
                    translation? The main decision here is, should the result be fully
                    public domain, or should the result by licensed under a "Creative
                    Commons" or other open-type license? Please weigh in if you are
                    familiar with the advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage (to
                    me) of the latter, a license of some kind, is that you can control
                    versioning (a modification has to be marked as a modification, etc.) and
                    attribution (OpenScrolls.org and its translators must be credited).

                    What's the best way to solicit contributions? Maybe you know something
                    I don't about the world of getting funding for research or educational
                    projects, such as this one basically is.

                    thanks,
                    Peter Kirby

                    PS-- The Open Scrolls website is already ranking #14 or so for the term
                    "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Google. I am certain that it will make it to the
                    first page of the search results as soon as some serious content can be
                    found there. It is, therefore, a very good spot to position the
                    transcription and translation effort described above.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Peter Kirby
                    ... I don t see why not, if you are willing to become one of the translators / transcribers when the Open Scrolls project officially launches. Just resubmit
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                      Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                      > Hi Peter,
                      >
                      > Do I get paid for the work I already did????
                      >
                      I don't see why not, if you are willing to become one of the translators
                      / transcribers when the Open Scrolls project officially launches. Just
                      resubmit the translation work you had done at that time.
                      > Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around.
                      >
                      > Liz Fried
                      The Accordance software's translation, transcription, and index costs $120.

                      The Logos software's transcription costs $80.

                      The hardcopy books edited by Florentino García Martínez cost about $100
                      and cannot be searched.

                      There are other costs associated with getting Accordance or Logos up and
                      running, usually some several hundred dollars. Many people do not have
                      several hundred dollars to spend on getting the Dead Sea Scrolls
                      searchable and available in the original language.

                      The advantages of the Open Scrolls project are that the result would:

                      * Be free.
                      * Include a transcription (critical text).
                      * Include a translation (not even this is on the Internet at present).
                      * Searchable at OpenScrolls.org or at any other site choosing to host it.
                      * Integrated with popular free and low-cost Bible software packages (the
                      free "Sword" softwares, and the various ones you see on the shelf for
                      $50 or less)

                      I think that this more than justifies the project.

                      regards,
                      Peter Kirby
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