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Re: One in the eye for an unjust judge

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  • sdavies0
    Can you summarize the argument more fully? Steve Davies ... Cotter “The Parable of the Feisty Widow and the Threatened Judge”,  NTS July 2005,  238ff
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 4, 2006
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      Can you summarize the argument more fully?
      Steve Davies

      >
      > I have just encountered a good case for being a literalist.  Wendy
      Cotter “The Parable of the Feisty Widow and the Threatened
      Judge”,  NTS July 2005,  238ff argues that the judge gives in to
      the feisty widow because she might give him a black eye.
      >
      > Isn’t that fun?
      >
      > I would like to know how the linguists on XTalk view Cotter’s
      literal rendering of Lk. 18.5
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Ernie Pennells,
      > 220-50 Songhees Road,
      > Victoria BC, 
      > Canada V9A 7J4
      >
      > Tel: (1) 250 - 381 5676
      >  
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Ernest Pennells
      ... I guess I was being rather cryptic, Steve. The key word in Lk. 18.5 is ‘UPWPIAZW (strike under the eye), which translators have rendered metaphorically
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 4, 2006
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        [Steve Davies]:
        >Can you summarize the argument more fully?

        I guess I was being rather cryptic, Steve.

        The key word in Lk. 18.5 is ‘UPWPIAZW (strike under the eye), which
        translators have rendered metaphorically as the unjust judge being pestered
        by the widow. Wendy Cotter takes this more literally as the judge feeling
        concerned that this determined and feisty woman might actually give him a
        black eye.

        Eugene Peterson in “The Message” comes close to Cotter’s theme with, “I’m
        going to end up beaten black-and-blue by her pounding.”

        Kenneth Bailey “Poets & Peasants” also comes close to Wendy Cotter’s theme.
        Based upon his knowledge peasant communities in the Middle East, he
        describes the potential for a bold woman to brave the male assembly before a
        judge, and win an effective hearing through disruptive behaviour.

        My enquiry is therefore whether the customary metaphorical treatments have a
        stronger claim than Cotter’s fisticuffs.

        Regards,

        Ernie Pennells,
        220-50 Songhees Road,
        Victoria BC,
        Canada V9A 7J4

        Tel: (1) 250 - 381 5676



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sdavies0
        ... pestered by the widow. Wendy Cotter takes this more literally as the judge feeling concerned that this determined and feisty woman might actually give
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 5, 2006
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          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Ernest Pennells" <pennells@...>
          wrote:

          > The key word in Lk. 18.5 is `UPWPIAZW (strike under the eye), which
          > translators have rendered metaphorically as the unjust judge being
          pestered > by the widow. Wendy Cotter takes this more literally as
          the judge feeling > concerned that this determined and feisty woman
          might actually give him a > black eye.

          >> My enquiry is therefore whether the customary metaphorical
          treatments have a > stronger claim than Cotter's fisticuffs.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Ernie Pennells,

          Well, I dunno. How's that for help? It would seem to me that the
          parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
          God. That doesn't seem likely to me in terms of the religious context
          of the times.

          Furthermore, the purpose of a judge is to hear a case, not to give in
          to pressure. This judge doesn't hear the case at all, but gives in.
          That fits his unrigheous character well, but doesn't make it likely
          that he is to be considered God. The woman is taking advantage of his
          unrighteousness by her strategy.

          For all we know the whining bitch doesn't have a case at all. I think
          of a particular instance at my college where public screaming
          (literally)and threatening-lawsuits repeatedly won the day for a
          woman who had not the slightest scrap of right on her side.

          As the judge is God, the woman, in turn, is said to be an allegory
          for God's chosen ones. Now, if they are already the chosen ones, they
          will already unjustly have God working for them against enemies who
          have just and righteous claims against them, as the OT oft
          reports to be the icase. I don't see any reason for anyone advancing
          the argument that God's chosen will get their way, rightly or
          wrongly, by physically threatening to assault God, although that is
          the case if the Bible's allegory is to be followed and we assume that
          strike under the eye is (more or less)literally meant.

          We are to keep whining to God and eventually, whether we are in the
          right or not, he'll give in just to get us to leave him alone....
          that's the relationship of God to His Chosen? I suspect that the
          original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
          allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
          Chosen-People/Woman.

          But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
          the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?

          I know, this letter doesn't help you with your question, but...
          well... there we are.

          Steve Davies
        • Tony Buglass
          Steve Davies wrote: It would seem to me that the parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for God. [snipped] I suspect that the
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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            Steve Davies wrote:
            It would seem to me that the
            parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
            God. [snipped] I suspect that the
            original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
            allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
            Chosen-People/Woman.
            But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
            the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?

            Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it? Which doesn't mean that in some original version of the story the judge is not used to refer to God in some other metaphorical device. (Bit vague, I know, but it *is* Monday morning...)

            For my money, the application is 18:7, not 18:8; it's a "how much more" type of story (cf Lk.11:13) - ie if such a dodgy character as this judge will eventualy do as he is asked, how much more will your loving heavenly Father answer your prayers. Whether the original saying was part of the story as Luke shapes it, to deal with his church's concerns over parousia-delay, is another question. But the image of a feisty widow losing it with a bad judge and smacking him in the eye - sounds like exactly the kind of cartoon-image Jesus would have used to get the crowd going. In a different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry cartoons...

            Cheers,
            Rev Tony Buglass
            Superintendent Minister
            Upper Calder Methodist Circuit



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ernest Pennells
            [Tony Buglass] ... cartoons... I like it, Tony [Tony Buglass] ... Then what have translators been feeding us all these years? I want my Tom and Jerry!
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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              [Tony Buglass]
              >In a different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry
              cartoons...

              I like it, Tony

              [Tony Buglass]
              >Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it?

              Then what have translators been feeding us all these years? I want my Tom
              and Jerry!

              Regards,

              Ernie Pennells,
              220-50 Songhees Road,
              Victoria BC,
              Canada V9A 7J4

              Tel: (1) 250 - 381 5676



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gordon Raynal
              Hi Tony, Steve and Ernie, ... I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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                Hi Tony, Steve and Ernie,
                On Nov 6, 2006, at 4:40 AM, Tony Buglass wrote:

                > Steve Davies wrote:
                > It would seem to me that the
                > parable could not originally have had an unjust judge allegorical for
                > God. [snipped] I suspect that the
                > original parable (is this a parable, I can't tell anymore) did not
                > allegorize God/Judge at all. That makes no sense to me, nor does
                > Chosen-People/Woman.
                > But what do you suppose it might have been about, if the allegory in
                > the Word is secondary and not the intent of the original?
                >
                > Allegory is usually seen as secondary, isn't it? Which doesn't
                > mean that in some original version of the story the judge is not
                > used to refer to God in some other metaphorical device. (Bit
                > vague, I know, but it *is* Monday morning...)
                >
                > For my money, the application is 18:7, not 18:8; it's a "how much
                > more" type of story (cf Lk.11:13) - ie if such a dodgy character as
                > this judge will eventualy do as he is asked, how much more will
                > your loving heavenly Father answer your prayers. Whether the
                > original saying was part of the story as Luke shapes it, to deal
                > with his church's concerns over parousia-delay, is another
                > question. But the image of a feisty widow losing it with a bad
                > judge and smacking him in the eye - sounds like exactly the kind of
                > cartoon-image Jesus would have used to get the crowd going. In a
                > different age and culture, he might have used Tom and Jerry
                > cartoons...
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Rev Tony Buglass
                > Superintendent Minister
                > Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                >
                >
                I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner
                and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
                ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
                (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
                etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
                stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
                writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
                it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
                widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
                oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
                concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
                brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
                God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
                distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
                NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and again!

                Gordon Raynal
                Inman, SC
              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                ... FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion, is a friend of mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from me).
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 6, 2006
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                  Gordon Raynal wrote:

                  > I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target. Road Runner
                  > and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
                  > ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
                  > (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
                  > etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
                  > stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
                  > writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
                  > it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
                  > widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
                  > oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
                  > concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
                  > brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
                  > God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
                  > distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
                  > NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and again!

                  FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion, is a friend of
                  mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from me). I'll ask
                  her if she wants to come on board and join this discussion.

                  Jeffrey

                  P.S. I'm still waiting for responses from XTalkers about attendance at SBL.

                  --
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  Chicago, Illinois
                  e-mail jgibson000@...
                • Gordon Raynal
                  Hi Jeffrey, Will be interested in her comments. See you in a couple of weeks. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 7, 2006
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                    Hi Jeffrey,
                    Will be interested in her comments.
                    See you in a couple of weeks.
                    Gordon Raynal
                    Inman, SC
                    On Nov 6, 2006, at 7:20 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                    >
                    >> I love the Tom and Jerry connection! Right on target.
                    >> Road Runner
                    >> and Wylie Coyote work, too:)! Jesus compared the Kingdom to the
                    >> ravenous mustard weed that grows so huge that it invited birds
                    >> (crows?) to the cornfield... to an Assassin who needed his practice,
                    >> etc. All very Tom and Jerry-like/ Road Runner and Wylie Coyote-like
                    >> stories. In his fine little book, "The Essential Jesus" Crossan
                    >> writes (p 170) "Hear it instead (that is not in the way Luke frames
                    >> it) in its own literal situation where, in a world of male dominance,
                    >> widows (and orphans) are peculiarly susceptible to injustice and
                    >> oppression. Such a focus surely connects us to all the prophetic
                    >> concerns about the lowliest of the low and the weakest and forward to
                    >> brother James statement: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before
                    >> God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their
                    >> distress, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (Jas. 1:27
                    >> NRSV) Strategies for the latter might take a good smack now and
                    >> again!
                    >
                    > FWIW, Wendy Cotter, the author of the article now under discussion,
                    > is a friend of
                    > mine (and who incidentally, also happens to live half a mile from
                    > me). I'll ask
                    > her if she wants to come on board and join this discussion.
                    >
                    > Jeffrey
                    >
                    > P.S. I'm still waiting for responses from XTalkers about
                    > attendance at SBL.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                    > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                    > Chicago, Illinois
                    > e-mail jgibson000@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                    >
                    > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
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                  • Peter Kirby
                    Hello XTalkers, You may have heard of the Open Scrolls Project before, and you would know, then, that it hasn t done much to get off the ground. I believe
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                      Hello XTalkers,

                      You may have heard of "the Open Scrolls Project" before, and you would
                      know, then, that it hasn't done much to get off the ground. I believe
                      that this is because the model of volunteer contributions of translation
                      time is not the most efficient, because it puts an extraordinary burden
                      on a few individuals (those who are able to translate Aramaic, Greek,
                      and Hebrew) without due compensation.

                      I believe that a better model would be to establish a fund out of which
                      the qualified translators can be paid for the service they render.
                      Then, people would be able to contribute their money to this fund, with
                      the expectation that even a little bit of money will result in some of
                      the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and transcribed--and available for
                      free--that were not before.

                      I would hope that individuals interested in the result would be
                      contributors, but also corporations that sell Bible software packages
                      that do not currently include the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they would be
                      reaping the financial rewards of the result. I would definitely contact
                      them for their sponsorship, in addition to the public.

                      If you go to the website,

                      http://www.openscrolls.org/

                      You will see that I am currently looking for a few things to get off the
                      ground:

                      First, I need two other people to serve on the Board of Directors for
                      Open Scrolls, Inc. I would prefer people who have academic credentials
                      (to compensate for my lack of such), but also an enthusiasm for the
                      project. The Board of Directors may or may not be paid for their time,
                      but would at least be able to recoup any expenses incurred.

                      Second, I need one to three people to serve as an editorial review for
                      the work of translation. They would be responsible for quality
                      control. They would be paid along with the translators. (Someone may
                      serve on both the BoD and the editoral review, especially if they'd like
                      to be paid. I myself won't be on the editorial review board.) The size
                      of the editorial review board is a function of each person's available
                      time; if we get one person with a lot of time, we may not need the other
                      two.

                      Third, I need contacts for people wanting to be paid for the work of
                      transcription and translation working off the photocopies in the
                      "Discoveries in the Judean Desert" series (DJD). I could potentially
                      use up to a dozen such people, subdividing out the actual work of
                      translation and transcription.

                      Fourth, I could use the help of a web developer or web designer for the
                      initial OpenScrolls.org website. This is not crucial; OpenScrolls.org
                      will be a homebase for the distribution of the texts, but other channels
                      will distribute the texts also. In a pinch I can do this work.

                      Fifth, I need the comments of people like you on CrossTalk! What needs
                      to be done so that this venture succeeds? You might know something I
                      don't, so, enlighten me!

                      In particular...

                      What's the best license for the resulting transcription and
                      translation? The main decision here is, should the result be fully
                      public domain, or should the result by licensed under a "Creative
                      Commons" or other open-type license? Please weigh in if you are
                      familiar with the advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage (to
                      me) of the latter, a license of some kind, is that you can control
                      versioning (a modification has to be marked as a modification, etc.) and
                      attribution (OpenScrolls.org and its translators must be credited).

                      What's the best way to solicit contributions? Maybe you know something
                      I don't about the world of getting funding for research or educational
                      projects, such as this one basically is.

                      thanks,
                      Peter Kirby

                      PS-- The Open Scrolls website is already ranking #14 or so for the term
                      "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Google. I am certain that it will make it to the
                      first page of the search results as soon as some serious content can be
                      found there. It is, therefore, a very good spot to position the
                      transcription and translation effort described above.
                    • Lisbeth S. Fried
                      Hi Peter, Do I get paid for the work I already did???? Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around. Liz Fried _____ From:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                        Hi Peter,

                        Do I get paid for the work I already did????



                        Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around.

                        Liz Fried



                        _____

                        From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Kirby
                        Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:50 AM
                        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [XTalk] Dead Sea Scrolls online? the Open Scrolls project



                        Hello XTalkers,

                        You may have heard of "the Open Scrolls Project" before, and you would
                        know, then, that it hasn't done much to get off the ground. I believe
                        that this is because the model of volunteer contributions of translation
                        time is not the most efficient, because it puts an extraordinary burden
                        on a few individuals (those who are able to translate Aramaic, Greek,
                        and Hebrew) without due compensation.

                        I believe that a better model would be to establish a fund out of which
                        the qualified translators can be paid for the service they render.
                        Then, people would be able to contribute their money to this fund, with
                        the expectation that even a little bit of money will result in some of
                        the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and transcribed--and available for
                        free--that were not before.

                        I would hope that individuals interested in the result would be
                        contributors, but also corporations that sell Bible software packages
                        that do not currently include the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they would be
                        reaping the financial rewards of the result. I would definitely contact
                        them for their sponsorship, in addition to the public.

                        If you go to the website,

                        http://www.openscro <http://www.openscrolls.org/> lls.org/

                        You will see that I am currently looking for a few things to get off the
                        ground:

                        First, I need two other people to serve on the Board of Directors for
                        Open Scrolls, Inc. I would prefer people who have academic credentials
                        (to compensate for my lack of such), but also an enthusiasm for the
                        project. The Board of Directors may or may not be paid for their time,
                        but would at least be able to recoup any expenses incurred.

                        Second, I need one to three people to serve as an editorial review for
                        the work of translation. They would be responsible for quality
                        control. They would be paid along with the translators. (Someone may
                        serve on both the BoD and the editoral review, especially if they'd like
                        to be paid. I myself won't be on the editorial review board.) The size
                        of the editorial review board is a function of each person's available
                        time; if we get one person with a lot of time, we may not need the other
                        two.

                        Third, I need contacts for people wanting to be paid for the work of
                        transcription and translation working off the photocopies in the
                        "Discoveries in the Judean Desert" series (DJD). I could potentially
                        use up to a dozen such people, subdividing out the actual work of
                        translation and transcription.

                        Fourth, I could use the help of a web developer or web designer for the
                        initial OpenScrolls.org website. This is not crucial; OpenScrolls.org
                        will be a homebase for the distribution of the texts, but other channels
                        will distribute the texts also. In a pinch I can do this work.

                        Fifth, I need the comments of people like you on CrossTalk! What needs
                        to be done so that this venture succeeds? You might know something I
                        don't, so, enlighten me!

                        In particular...

                        What's the best license for the resulting transcription and
                        translation? The main decision here is, should the result be fully
                        public domain, or should the result by licensed under a "Creative
                        Commons" or other open-type license? Please weigh in if you are
                        familiar with the advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage (to
                        me) of the latter, a license of some kind, is that you can control
                        versioning (a modification has to be marked as a modification, etc.) and
                        attribution (OpenScrolls.org and its translators must be credited).

                        What's the best way to solicit contributions? Maybe you know something
                        I don't about the world of getting funding for research or educational
                        projects, such as this one basically is.

                        thanks,
                        Peter Kirby

                        PS-- The Open Scrolls website is already ranking #14 or so for the term
                        "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Google. I am certain that it will make it to the
                        first page of the search results as soon as some serious content can be
                        found there. It is, therefore, a very good spot to position the
                        transcription and translation effort described above.





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Peter Kirby
                        ... I don t see why not, if you are willing to become one of the translators / transcribers when the Open Scrolls project officially launches. Just resubmit
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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                          Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                          > Hi Peter,
                          >
                          > Do I get paid for the work I already did????
                          >
                          I don't see why not, if you are willing to become one of the translators
                          / transcribers when the Open Scrolls project officially launches. Just
                          resubmit the translation work you had done at that time.
                          > Who uses the site? There are plenty of translations of the DSS around.
                          >
                          > Liz Fried
                          The Accordance software's translation, transcription, and index costs $120.

                          The Logos software's transcription costs $80.

                          The hardcopy books edited by Florentino García Martínez cost about $100
                          and cannot be searched.

                          There are other costs associated with getting Accordance or Logos up and
                          running, usually some several hundred dollars. Many people do not have
                          several hundred dollars to spend on getting the Dead Sea Scrolls
                          searchable and available in the original language.

                          The advantages of the Open Scrolls project are that the result would:

                          * Be free.
                          * Include a transcription (critical text).
                          * Include a translation (not even this is on the Internet at present).
                          * Searchable at OpenScrolls.org or at any other site choosing to host it.
                          * Integrated with popular free and low-cost Bible software packages (the
                          free "Sword" softwares, and the various ones you see on the shelf for
                          $50 or less)

                          I think that this more than justifies the project.

                          regards,
                          Peter Kirby
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