Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Arabists' Challenge to Bailey's *haflat samar* Interpretation

Expand Messages
  • Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP
    I m sorry, but there seems to be a fundamental problem with stereotyping Wisconsin Muslims within an intellectual category that can be retrojected two thousand
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 9, 2006
      I'm sorry, but there seems to be a fundamental problem with stereotyping Wisconsin Muslims within an intellectual category that can be retrojected two thousand years back into history as representative of those hearers of the original spoken (chanted) gospels.

      We must realize that the 21st century cannot shed as much light as we would like upon the 1st.

      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP, Hon. ASLA
      edmiston@...
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου μετὰ πάντων.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Joseph, whose post(s) are you charging with stereotyping and with retrojecting? Jeffery Hodges Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP wrote: I m
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 11, 2006
        Joseph, whose post(s) are you charging with stereotyping and with retrojecting?

        Jeffery Hodges

        "Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP" <edmiston@...> wrote:
        I'm sorry, but there seems to be a fundamental problem with stereotyping Wisconsin Muslims within an intellectual category that can be retrojected two thousand years back into history as representative of those hearers of the original spoken (chanted) gospels.

        We must realize that the 21st century cannot shed as much light as we would like upon the 1st.

        ------------------------------------------------------------
        Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP, Hon. ASLA
        edmiston@...
        ------------------------------------------------------------



        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ken Olson
        Jeffery, If what Joseph says is true, I believe this would mean that Ted need not show that the modern haflat samar is not as Bailey describes it, because
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 11, 2006
          Jeffery,

          If what Joseph says is true, I believe this would mean that Ted need not show that the modern "haflat samar" is not as Bailey describes it, because modern models may not be projected back to the first century in the way Bailey attempts anyway. Whether that was Joseph's intended meaning or not is another thing entirely. I think Joseph may have missed Ted's actual argument that the "haflat samar" does not function as Bailey says it does in modern times, much less in the first century.

          Best,

          Ken

          Kenneth A. Olson
          MA, History, University of Maryland
          PhD Student, Religion, Duke University

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:18 PM
          Subject: [XTalk] Re: Arabists' Challenge to Bailey's *haflat samar* Interpretation


          Joseph, whose post(s) are you charging with stereotyping and with retrojecting?

          Jeffery Hodges

          "Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP" <edmiston@...> wrote:
          I'm sorry, but there seems to be a fundamental problem with stereotyping Wisconsin Muslims within an intellectual category that can be retrojected two thousand years back into history as representative of those hearers of the original spoken (chanted) gospels.

          We must realize that the 21st century cannot shed as much light as we would like upon the 1st.

          ----------------------------------------------------------
          Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP, Hon. ASLA
          edmiston@...
          ----------------------------------------------------------

          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • afsegal
          Do you think someone could review the bidding on this controversy. I have been in the hospital and was unable to see the original exchange. Since no one has
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
            Do you think someone could review the bidding on this controversy. I
            have been in the hospital and was unable to see the original
            exchange. Since no one has actually repeated what the positions are,
            everything since then has been pretty much incomprehensible. What
            are the different positions on Haflat samar?

            Best,

            AFSeg./

            Alan Segal
            Barnard College

            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Olson" <kenolson101@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Jeffery,
            >
            > If what Joseph says is true, I believe this would mean that Ted
            need not show that the modern "haflat samar" is not as Bailey
            describes it, because modern models may not be projected back to the
            first century in the way Bailey attempts anyway. Whether that was
            Joseph's intended meaning or not is another thing entirely. I think
            Joseph may have missed Ted's actual argument that the "haflat samar"
            does not function as Bailey says it does in modern times, much less
            in the first century.
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > Ken
            >
            > Kenneth A. Olson
            > MA, History, University of Maryland
            > PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
            > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:18 PM
            > Subject: [XTalk] Re: Arabists' Challenge to Bailey's *haflat
            samar* Interpretation
            >
            >
            > Joseph, whose post(s) are you charging with stereotyping and with
            retrojecting?
            >
            > Jeffery Hodges
            >
            > "Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP" <edmiston@...> wrote:
            > I'm sorry, but there seems to be a fundamental problem with
            stereotyping Wisconsin Muslims within an intellectual category that
            can be retrojected two thousand years back into history as
            representative of those hearers of the original spoken (chanted)
            gospels.
            >
            > We must realize that the 21st century cannot shed as much light
            as we would like upon the 1st.
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            > Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP, Hon. ASLA
            > edmiston@...
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > University Degrees:
            >
            > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
            > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
            Gnostic Texts")
            > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
            > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
            >
            > Email Address:
            >
            > jefferyhodges@...
            >
            > Blog:
            >
            > http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
            >
            > Office Address:
            >
            > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
            > Department of English Language and Literature
            > Korea University
            > 136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
            > Seoul
            > South Korea
            >
            > Home Address:
            >
            > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
            > Sehan Apt. 102-2302
            > Sinnae-dong 795
            > Jungrang-gu
            > Seoul 131-770
            > South Korea
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Asegal@aol.com
            Actually, I take this back. Sorry for bothering the group. As soon as I accessed the website I was able to reread the whole controversy. I made the
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
              Actually, I take this back. Sorry for bothering the group. As soon as I
              accessed the website I was able to reread the whole controversy. I made the
              mistake of thinking I was still signed in and that there was no history. Sorry
              for that.

              Best,

              AFSeg./

              In a message dated 9/12/2006 9:31:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              Asegal@... writes:




              Do you think someone could review the bidding on this controversy. I
              have been in the hospital and was unable to see the original
              exchange. Since no one has actually repeated what the positions are,
              everything since then has been pretty much incomprehensible. What
              are the different positions on Haflat samar?

              Best,

              AFSeg./

              Alan Segal
              Barnard College

              --- In _crosstalk2@yahoogrocrossta_ (mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com) ,
              "Ken Olson" <kenolson101@ken>
              wrote:
              >
              > Jeffery,
              >
              > If what Joseph says is true, I believe this would mean that Ted
              need not show that the modern "haflat samar" is not as Bailey
              describes it, because modern models may not be projected back to the
              first century in the way Bailey attempts anyway. Whether that was
              Joseph's intended meaning or not is another thing entirely. I think
              Joseph may have missed Ted's actual argument that the "haflat samar"
              does not function as Bailey says it does in modern times, much less
              in the first century.
              >
              > Best,
              >
              > Ken
              >
              > Kenneth A. Olson
              > MA, History, University of Maryland
              > PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
              > To: _crosstalk2@yahoogrocrossta_ (mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com)
              > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:18 PM
              > Subject: [XTalk] Re: Arabists' Challenge to Bailey's *haflat
              samar* Interpretation
              >
              >
              > Joseph, whose post(s) are you charging with stereotyping and with
              retrojecting?
              >
              > Jeffery Hodges
              >
              > "Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP" <edmiston@..e> wrote:
              > I'm sorry, but there seems to be a fundamental problem with
              stereotyping Wisconsin Muslims within an intellectual category that
              can be retrojected two thousand years back into history as
              representative of those hearers of the original spoken (chanted)
              gospels.
              >
              > We must realize that the 21st century cannot shed as much light
              as we would like upon the 1st.
              >
              > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
              > Joseph T. Edmiston, FAICP, Hon. ASLA
              > edmiston@...
              > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
              >
              > University Degrees:
              >
              > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
              Gnostic Texts")
              > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
              >
              > Email Address:
              >
              > jefferyhodges@ je
              >
              > Blog:
              >
              > _http://gypsyscholarhttp://gypsyschttp_
              (http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/)
              >
              > Office Address:
              >
              > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              > Department of English Language and Literature
              > Korea University
              > 136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              > Seoul
              > South Korea
              >
              > Home Address:
              >
              > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              > Sehan Apt. 102-2302
              > Sinnae-dong 795
              > Jungrang-gu
              > Seoul 131-770
              > South Korea
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >







              Alan F. Segal
              Professor of Religion
              Ingeborg Rennert Professor of Jewish Studies
              Barnard College, Columbia University
              3009 Broadway
              219 Milbank Hall
              New York City NY 10027-6598

              asegal@...
              asegal@...


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Theodore Weeden
              ... Thank you, John. I hope to be able to get it finished and in publication. ... Thank you for drawing my attention to Naddaff s work and the Miquel quote
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 12, 2006
                John Poirier wrote on September 08, 2006:

                > Ted,
                >
                > I look forward to reading your finished article.

                Thank you, John. I hope to be able to get it finished and in publication.

                > Your reference to the *samar* roots of the 1001 Nights reminded me of a
                > book
                > that I read years ago: Sandra Naddaff's *Arabesque: Narrative Structure
                > and
                > the Aesthetics of Repetition in 1001 Nights* (Evanston, IL: Northwestern
                > Univ. Press, 1991). On p. 65 of that book, Naddaff writes:
                >
                > One should begin at the beginning, in this case, outsdide the text,
                > and
                > remember that the earliest version of the *1001 Nights* was an aurally
                > intended work perrformed before a live audience. André Miquel notes
                > that it was possibly told as part of the *samar*, "cette pratique
                > quasi
                > institutionnêlle de la culture arabo-musulmane classique: la
                > conversation
                > nocturne. . . . Le *samar* est d'ordinaire ce qui clôt la journée
                > active,
                > avant le repos nocturne, et l'on a toutes raisons de penser que c'est
                > de
                > ce type-là que relève le *samar* du conteur, qu'on l'imagine au milieu
                > d'un groupe restreint ou sur la place publique." The storyteller
                > nightly
                > tells his story about a woman who nightly tells her stories and who,
                > like
                > him, depends upon the approval of her audience in order to continue
                > the narrative act and, ultimately, in order to stay alive. The
                > pattern
                > persists.
                >
                > The French quotation is from André Miquel, *Ajib et Gharib: Un conte des
                > "Mille et une nuits"* (Paris, 1978) 225-26.

                Thank you for drawing my attention to Naddaff's work and the Miquel quote
                with reference to *samar*. This all is consistent with what Arabic
                authorities and Middle East people I have interviewed have shared with me
                with respect to the historical character and purpose of *haflat samar*.

                > As for how or why Bailey fudges the description of what a *samar* is, I
                > think that you're seeing an almost subconscious mechanism by which the
                > proponents of a particular theory smuggle their views into their offered
                > readings of a body of knowledge that they calculate their audience to hold
                > no expertise in.

                [snip]

                I am not prepared to say why and how Bailey arrived at a different
                interpretation of the character and purpose of a *haflat samar* than appears
                to be widely held by others. Naddaff and Miquel are yet two more examples
                of this widely held view. For all the reasons I have cited in posts
                regarding this thread, it is difficult for me to understand how oral
                societies in Southern Egypt would, per Bailey, hold such a radically
                different and extraordinarily atypical view of their *hafalat samar*,
                namely, as almost nightly meetings with the indispensable agenda of
                preserving the historical authenticity of their oral tradition about John
                Hogg, their missionary founder. Largely illiterate, it is difficult for me
                to understand how such societies would draw a connection, as Bailey does,
                between the Hebrew *shamar* ("preserve") and the Arabic *samar*, and thus
                arrived at an idiosyncratic meaning of *haflat samar* as a "party for
                preservation," per Bailey.

                > This happens all the time when preachers, with no seminary
                > education and no facility in Hebrew or Greek beyond their ability to use
                > Strong's concordance, smuggle their pet readings into the biblical
                > lexicson,
                > creating ridiculously long and theologically technical definitions of
                > Hebrew
                > and Greek words There is no doubt that they are smuggling their views
                > into
                > those words, yet I would venture that very few of them that do that sort
                > of
                > thing are at all aware of what they are doing. It's as if one side of
                > their
                > brain is fooling the other side. (Unfortunately, his sort of thing also
                > happens at the highest levels of academia--e.g., it is the most generous
                > explanation for the postliberals' revisionist history of hermeneutics.
                > All
                > one needs to do to deflate Hans Frei's claims about pre-Enlightenment
                > hermeneutics is to read the hermeneutical programs of pre-Enlightenment
                > figures.)

                What you describe can and does happen, unfortunately. Not only should we
                be cognizant and wary of such with respect to others, but we need to remain
                vigilant and self-critically honest with respect to ourselves on this issue.

                Ted Weeden
                Theodore J. Weeden, Sr,
                Fairport, NY
                Retired
                Ph.D., Claremont Graduate University
                Theodore
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.