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Re: [XTalk] Messiah in 1st Century

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... Called by whom? One of the problems in knowing if what you are asking about was actually done of any of these figures -- all of whom certainly acted
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 7, 2006
      rit2506 wrote:

      > A number of so-called "messianic claimants" are frequently sited. But
      > I have so far not found any specific reference to these claimants as
      > actually described as "messiah." Does anyone know of any other figure
      > in the first-century who was called messiah except for Jesus?
      >
      > For example, were any of the following actually called "messiah" or
      > "christos": Athronges the shepherd, Judas the Galilean, Samaritan
      > prophet, Theudas, Egyptian prophet, Anonymous prophet, Menahem, son of
      >
      > Judas, Simon bar Giora, Jonathan the weaver, Lukuas?
      >
      Called by whom?

      One of the problems in knowing if what you are asking about was actually
      done of any of these figures -- all of whom certainly acted
      "messianically" and/or seem to have claimed messianic/kingly status --
      is that we have nothing from themselves or their followers -- or from
      those who saw to their demise -- in which such an appellation might have
      appeared.

      We do, however, have an explicit recognition in Mk. 13 that Mark
      believed that there **were** those who did see this title as appropriate
      for themselves and even took it up.

      And we have Akiva application of "Messiah" to Bar Kosibah, do we not?

      And what about the Josephan and Rabbinic testimony to deceivers? What
      was it that deceived the people about or over? And what lies behind the
      title of "the prophet"?

      Yours,

      Jeffrey Gibson
      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Loren Rosson
      ... Josephus wouldn t acknowledge it, so the absence of the title in his descriptions doesn t mean much -- especially when certain parallels creep in anyway.
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 8, 2006
        rit2506 asked:

        > > were any of the following actually
        > > called "messiah" or "christos":
        > > Athronges the shepherd, Judas the
        > > Galilean, Samaritan
        > > prophet, Theudas, Egyptian prophet, Anonymous
        > > prophet, Menahem, son of
        > > Judas, Simon bar Giora, Jonathan the weaver,
        > > Lukuas?

        Josephus wouldn't acknowledge it, so the absence of
        the title in his descriptions doesn't mean much --
        especially when certain parallels creep in anyway. In
        War 2:57-58/Antiq 17:273-274, Simon of Perea is
        described a bit like Saul (I Sam 9:2). And Anthronges
        of Judea certainly looks like David the shepherd-king
        come again (War 2:60-62/Antiq 17:278).

        Two (very different) books worth reading on the
        subject of first-century messiahship are Horsley and
        Hanson's _Bandits, Prophets, and Messiahs_; and John
        Collins' _The Scepter and the Star: The Messiahs of
        the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature_.
        The latter demonstrates a diversity of messianic
        expectations (involving not just kings, but also
        priests, prophets, and heavenly arch-angels), and it
        wouldn't surprise me to learn that figures like the
        Egyptian Prophet and Theudas were regarded as messiahs
        by their followers.

        Loren Rosson III
        Nashua NH
        http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/

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      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 5:59 PM Subject: [XTalk] Messiah in 1st Century ... In the 1st
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 5, 2006
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <RSBrenchley@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 5:59 PM
          Subject: [XTalk] Messiah in 1st Century


          >
          > <<Thanks Mike for pointing me in a couple of directions. I am still not
          > content with this. Does anyone know of any figure called "messiah"
          > besides Jesus actually in the first century world?
          >
          > Any suggestions on where to turn to find out such answer?
          >
          > David Ritsema>>
          >
          >
          > Josephus uses the term of Vespasian, but he's not exactly reliable as an
          > indicator of Jewish belief in the matter! Most likely some of the rebel
          > leaders
          > he wrote claimed Messiahship, or had it claimed for them by others, but
          > in
          > their case he avoids using it, probably deliberately. Bar Cochba was, of
          > course, declared to be the Messiah by Akiva, but that may be too late for
          > your
          > needs.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Robert Brenchley


          In the 1st century there would be Theudas (44-46 CE), Judas of Gamala (6
          CE), the Egyptian (52-58), Simon of Girasa, Simon of Perea, the Samaritan,
          Athronges, John of Gischala (67-70 CE), Menahem.

          Jack
          .
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