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Re: [XTalk] LP book

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  • johnestaton
    ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Jeffrey,
      >
      > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
      > similar to me.
      >
      > What is the age of the kaddish?
      >
      > Liz Fried
      >
      > Ann Arbor

      JES
      Lisbeth,
      Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
      widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
      kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
      prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
      for its early provenance.

      Best Wishes

      JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
      Penistone, Sheffield UK
      www.christianreflection.org.uk
    • Mark Preece
      ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
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        At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
        >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
        >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
        >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

        And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
        problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
        to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
        that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
        more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

        I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
        not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
        I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
        would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
        guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
        people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
        to the end of their lives.

        Peace,

        Mark.

        The Rev. Mark Preece
        Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
        King of Prussia, PA
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: <mwp@...>
          Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


          > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
          >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
          >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
          >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
          >
          > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
          > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
          > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
          > not
          > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
          > There's
          > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
          >
          > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
          > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
          > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
          > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
          > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
          > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
          > "daddy"
          > to the end of their lives.
          >
          > Peace,
          >
          > Mark.
          >
          > The Rev. Mark Preece
          > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
          > King of Prussia, PA


          I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
          (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
          plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
          emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
          Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
          phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
          or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

          Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Marcos, Texas
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