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Re: [XTalk] LP book

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ...
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


      >
      >
      > Jack Kilmon wrote:
      >
      >> Susan:
      >> I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
      >> credible.
      >
      > Would you care to state why?
      >
      > Jeffrey


      Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
      Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
      Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
      Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
      on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
      paraphrase.
      For example:

      Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak

      Abba n. Father

      d'wushMAya in heaven

      yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)

      shmak name-your

      Klotz translates this as:

      O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
      useful.

      It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically, with Second Temple Jewish prayers. It would seem that those people who think
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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        Jack Kilmon wrote:

        > Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
        > Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
        > Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
        > Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
        > on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
        > paraphrase.
        > For example:
        >
        > Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak
        >
        > Abba n. Father
        >
        > d'wushMAya in heaven
        >
        > yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)
        >
        > shmak name-your
        >
        > Klotz translates this as:
        >
        > O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
        > useful.
        >
        > It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

        Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically,
        with Second Temple Jewish prayers.

        It would seem that those people who think this sort of nonsense is really what
        Jesus was praying for in the LP are working not from an historical investigation
        of the theology of 1st century Judaism, but from a theological apriori about who
        God is and what "religion" is all about.

        Jeffrey
        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Tobias Hägerland
        ... for the names of ... whose work on the ... I think the following book deserves to be discussed: M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
          <jgibson000@...> wrote:
          > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
          for the names of
          > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
          whose work on the
          > LP you think need to be discussed.

          I think the following book deserves to be discussed:

          M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à la prière des
          disciples (Paris: Gallimard, 2001). Also available in German
          translation: Das Vaterunser: Vom Gebet Jesu zum Gebet der Jünger
          (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2002).

          Philonenko argues that the LP was originally two different prayers.

          /Tobias Hägerland
          Göteborg University, Sweden
        • Bob Schacht
          ... Isn t the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss * What role it played in the community that used the Didache * Whether the Didache
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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            At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
            >With apologies for cross posting.
            >
            >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
            >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
            >
            >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
            >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
            >I will need to deal with.
            >
            >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
            >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
            >not neglect given the aim of the book .

            Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
            * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
            * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
            (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
            There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
            or so.

            Bob

            >Yours,
            >
            >Jeffrey
            >
            >******
            >Outline
            >
            >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
            >Relationship
            >
            >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
            >
            >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
            >
            >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
            >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
            >
            >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
            >Eschatological Prayer)
            >
            >The Meaning of the Petitions
            >
            >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
            >
            >******
            >--
            >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            >Chicago, Illinois
            >e-mail jgibson000@...
            >
            >
            >
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          • James Spinti
            I didn t know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome: The Didache: Faith,
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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              I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:

              "The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
              by Aaron Milavec
              Paulist Press, 2003
              1,000 pages, English, Cloth
              ISBN: 0809105373
              List Price: $64.95

              He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

              HTH,
              James
              ________________________________
              James Spinti
              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
              Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
              Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
              Fax: 574-269-6788



              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht
              > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:53 AM
              > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
              >
              >
              > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
              > >With apologies for cross posting.
              > >
              > >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the
              > Lord's Prayer
              > >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
              > >
              > >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of
              > the topics
              > >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the
              > LP and that
              > >I will need to deal with.
              > >
              > >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know
              > whether you think
              > >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
              > >not neglect given the aim of the book .
              >
              > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason
              > to discuss
              > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
              > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from
              > Matthew) or not
              > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
              > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the
              > past 10 years
              > or so.
              >
              > Bob
              >
              > >Yours,
              > >
              > >Jeffrey
              > >
              > >******
              > >Outline
              > >
              > >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)
              > and their
              > >Relationship
              > >
              > >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
              > >
              > >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
              > >
              > >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
              > >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
              > >
              > >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
              > >Eschatological Prayer)
              > >
              > >The Meaning of the Petitions
              > >
              > >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
              > >
              > >******
              > >--
              > >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              > >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              > >Chicago, Illinois
              > >e-mail jgibson000@...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >The XTalk Home Page is
              > ><http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/>http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
              > >
              > >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
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              > >
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            • Bob Dietel
              ... Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. / The Didache: Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                James Spinti wrote:

                >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:
                >
                >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                >by Aaron Milavec
                >Paulist Press, 2003
                >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                >ISBN: 0809105373
                >List Price: $64.95
                >
                >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                --

                --Bob Dietel, vicar
                --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
              • Jim West
                ... Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                  Bob Dietel wrote:

                  >
                  > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                  > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                  > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                  > of the LP is in pp 134-138.

                  Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296.

                  Jim



                  --
                  Jim West, ThD

                  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                  http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                • James Spinti
                  By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or later. What does
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                    By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                    That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                    later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                    James
                    ________________________________
                    James Spinti
                    Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                    Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                    Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                    jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                    Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                    Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                    Fax: 574-269-6788



                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Dietel
                    > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:46 AM
                    > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                    >
                    >
                    > James Spinti wrote:
                    >
                    > >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache
                    > early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in
                    > his huge tome:
                    > >
                    > >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest
                    > Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                    > >by Aaron Milavec
                    > >Paulist Press, 2003
                    > >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                    > >ISBN: 0809105373
                    > >List Price: $64.95
                    > >
                    > >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.
                    >
                    > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                    > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                    > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                    > of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                    > --
                    >
                    > --Bob Dietel, vicar
                    > --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                    > -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                    > -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                    > -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Jack Kilmon
                    ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ... WSas there
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM
                      Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                      > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                      >>With apologies for cross posting.
                      >>
                      >>I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                      >>for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                      >>
                      >>I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                      >>that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                      >>I will need to deal with.
                      >>
                      >>But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                      >>there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                      >>not neglect given the aim of the book .
                      >
                      > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                      > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                      > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                      > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                      > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                      > or so.
                      >
                      > Bob

                      WSas there not a publication by Oxford University Press about 10 years ago
                      of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which included a version of ther LP?

                      Jack

                      Jack Kilmon
                    • Tony Buglass
                      James Spinti wrote: By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                        James Spinti wrote:
                        By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                        That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                        later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                        Crossan discusses the Lord's Prayer in The Historical Jesus p.293, and
                        refers to the Didache's version. He thinks it is an "independent rendition"
                        of the version known to Matthew. He thinks Luke has used the version in Q,
                        and Matthew has replaced it with the version used in his own community. As
                        far as the Didache himself is concerned, he includes it in his
                        stratification of the Jesus Tradition (p.427f). He places the first part of
                        it in his 3rd stratum (80-120) - that is Did.1:1-3a, 2:2-16:2. He thinks
                        1:3b-2:1 is a later insertion, independent of the intracanonical gospels.
                        He suggests also that the apocalyptic source behind Did.16:3-5 "may have
                        been known by Mk.13 or more likely by Mt.24." He places Did.1:3b-2:1 in the
                        4th stratum (120-150).

                        Cheers,
                        Rev Tony Buglass
                        Superintendent Minister
                        Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                      • johnestaton
                        ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Jeffrey,
                          >
                          > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
                          > similar to me.
                          >
                          > What is the age of the kaddish?
                          >
                          > Liz Fried
                          >
                          > Ann Arbor

                          JES
                          Lisbeth,
                          Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
                          widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                          kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
                          prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
                          for its early provenance.

                          Best Wishes

                          JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
                          Penistone, Sheffield UK
                          www.christianreflection.org.uk
                        • Mark Preece
                          ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
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                            At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                            >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                            >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                            >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

                            And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                            problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                            to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
                            that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
                            more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

                            I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                            not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                            I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                            would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                            guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                            people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
                            to the end of their lives.

                            Peace,

                            Mark.

                            The Rev. Mark Preece
                            Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                            King of Prussia, PA
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                              Cc: <mwp@...>
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                              Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                              > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                              >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                              >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                              >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
                              >
                              > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                              > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                              > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
                              > not
                              > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
                              > There's
                              > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
                              >
                              > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                              > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                              > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                              > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                              > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                              > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
                              > "daddy"
                              > to the end of their lives.
                              >
                              > Peace,
                              >
                              > Mark.
                              >
                              > The Rev. Mark Preece
                              > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                              > King of Prussia, PA


                              I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
                              (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
                              plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
                              emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
                              Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
                              phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
                              or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

                              Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

                              Jack

                              Jack Kilmon
                              San Marcos, Texas
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