Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] LP book

Expand Messages
  • Ken Olson
    Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

      <<But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the
      names of
      authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work
      on the
      LP you think need to be discussed.<<

      I see you've got a whole section on origins emphasizing Goulder. There's a
      lot of work out there that resembles Goulder's thesis that one of the
      evangelists (or his "community") composed the Lord's prayer from individual
      traditions with redactional additions, but still allows room for
      form-critical transmission [S. Van Tilborg, NovT 14.2( 1972) 94-105] and/or
      Q [Hal Taussig/Jesus Seminar, Forum 49 (1998) 25-41] and accumulated textual
      additions [J. C. O'Neill, JSNT 51 (1993) 3-25].

      I would still vote for Goulder's thesis in the simple form. One of the
      major arguments against Goulder is Jeremias' assertion that liturgical texts
      always grow during transmission. Charlesworth and company show this is not
      true in regard to Josephus' use of prayers from Maccabees and
      Kings/Chronicles and Charlesworth even provides the Aramaic form of Psalm
      15.1-2 as an example of a later, shorter, form which is completely contained
      in a longer form of liturgical text [Charlesworth, James H., ed., The Lord's
      Prayer and Other Prayer Texts from the Greco-Roman Era (Valley Forge,
      Pennsylvania: TPI, 1994)].

      Hope this helps, but i imagine you've already looked at these.

      Best,

      Ken

      Kenneth A. Olson
      MA, History, University of Maryland
      PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
    • Jack Kilmon
      Susan: I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not credible. Jack Kilmon ... From: Susan Jeffers To:
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Susan:
        I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
        credible.

        Jack Kilmon


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Susan Jeffers" <susan@...>
        To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:41 AM
        Subject: [XTalk] LP book


        > Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
        > Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
        > the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
        > should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
        > it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
        > of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
        > specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
        > persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
        > Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
        > available online on amazon.com.
        >
        > Susan Jeffers
        >
        > Jeffey Gibson wrote:
        > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
        > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
        > not neglect given the aim of the book .
        >
        >
        > -----------------------------------------------
        > EMail: susan@...
        > Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
        >
        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
        > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > List managers may be contacted directly at:
        > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Would you care to state why? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail jgibson000@comcast.net
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Jack Kilmon wrote:

          > Susan:
          > I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
          > credible.

          Would you care to state why?

          Jeffrey
          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ...
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


            >
            >
            > Jack Kilmon wrote:
            >
            >> Susan:
            >> I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
            >> credible.
            >
            > Would you care to state why?
            >
            > Jeffrey


            Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
            Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
            Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
            Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
            on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
            paraphrase.
            For example:

            Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak

            Abba n. Father

            d'wushMAya in heaven

            yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)

            shmak name-your

            Klotz translates this as:

            O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
            useful.

            It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically, with Second Temple Jewish prayers. It would seem that those people who think
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Jack Kilmon wrote:

              > Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
              > Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
              > Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
              > Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
              > on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
              > paraphrase.
              > For example:
              >
              > Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak
              >
              > Abba n. Father
              >
              > d'wushMAya in heaven
              >
              > yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)
              >
              > shmak name-your
              >
              > Klotz translates this as:
              >
              > O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
              > useful.
              >
              > It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

              Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically,
              with Second Temple Jewish prayers.

              It would seem that those people who think this sort of nonsense is really what
              Jesus was praying for in the LP are working not from an historical investigation
              of the theology of 1st century Judaism, but from a theological apriori about who
              God is and what "religion" is all about.

              Jeffrey
              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Tobias Hägerland
              ... for the names of ... whose work on the ... I think the following book deserves to be discussed: M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                for the names of
                > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                whose work on the
                > LP you think need to be discussed.

                I think the following book deserves to be discussed:

                M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à la prière des
                disciples (Paris: Gallimard, 2001). Also available in German
                translation: Das Vaterunser: Vom Gebet Jesu zum Gebet der Jünger
                (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2002).

                Philonenko argues that the LP was originally two different prayers.

                /Tobias Hägerland
                Göteborg University, Sweden
              • Bob Schacht
                ... Isn t the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss * What role it played in the community that used the Didache * Whether the Didache
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                  >With apologies for cross posting.
                  >
                  >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                  >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                  >
                  >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                  >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                  >I will need to deal with.
                  >
                  >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                  >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                  >not neglect given the aim of the book .

                  Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                  * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                  * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                  (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                  There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                  or so.

                  Bob

                  >Yours,
                  >
                  >Jeffrey
                  >
                  >******
                  >Outline
                  >
                  >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
                  >Relationship
                  >
                  >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                  >
                  >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                  >
                  >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                  >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                  >
                  >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                  >Eschatological Prayer)
                  >
                  >The Meaning of the Petitions
                  >
                  >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                  >
                  >******
                  >--
                  >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  >Chicago, Illinois
                  >e-mail jgibson000@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >The XTalk Home Page is
                  ><http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/>http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                  >
                  >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >SPONSORED LINKS
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Historical+jesus&w1=Historical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+christianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=jdvS-jlduIWYokV3Ul7j1A>Historical
                  >jesus
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Historical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+christianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=PRZaGy-53S81wUsfjCT2Zg>Beyond
                  >belief
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christianity+today&w1=Historical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+christianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=gUB1PVMB5Ggzi6ybPV-6Mg>Christianity
                  >today
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Mere+christianity&w1=Historical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+christianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=ctyEs8znv201GmPOMWz16w>Mere
                  >christianity
                  >
                  >
                  >----------
                  >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > * Visit your group
                  > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2>crosstalk2" on the web.
                  > *
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > *
                  > <mailto:crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > *
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >----------


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Spinti
                  I didn t know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome: The Didache: Faith,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:

                    "The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                    by Aaron Milavec
                    Paulist Press, 2003
                    1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                    ISBN: 0809105373
                    List Price: $64.95

                    He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                    HTH,
                    James
                    ________________________________
                    James Spinti
                    Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                    Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                    Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                    jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                    Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                    Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                    Fax: 574-269-6788



                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht
                    > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:53 AM
                    > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                    >
                    >
                    > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                    > >With apologies for cross posting.
                    > >
                    > >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the
                    > Lord's Prayer
                    > >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                    > >
                    > >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of
                    > the topics
                    > >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the
                    > LP and that
                    > >I will need to deal with.
                    > >
                    > >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know
                    > whether you think
                    > >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                    > >not neglect given the aim of the book .
                    >
                    > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason
                    > to discuss
                    > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                    > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from
                    > Matthew) or not
                    > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                    > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the
                    > past 10 years
                    > or so.
                    >
                    > Bob
                    >
                    > >Yours,
                    > >
                    > >Jeffrey
                    > >
                    > >******
                    > >Outline
                    > >
                    > >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)
                    > and their
                    > >Relationship
                    > >
                    > >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                    > >
                    > >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                    > >
                    > >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                    > >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                    > >
                    > >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                    > >Eschatological Prayer)
                    > >
                    > >The Meaning of the Petitions
                    > >
                    > >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                    > >
                    > >******
                    > >--
                    > >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                    > >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                    > >Chicago, Illinois
                    > >e-mail jgibson000@...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >The XTalk Home Page is
                    > ><http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/>http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                    > >
                    > >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                    > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
                    > crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >List managers may be contacted directly at:
                    > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >SPONSORED LINKS
                    > ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Historical+jesus&w1=Hist
                    > orical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+ch
                    > ristianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=jdvS-jlduIWYokV3Ul7j1A>Historical
                    > >jesus
                    > ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=Histori
                    > cal+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+chris
                    > tianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=PRZaGy-53S81wUsfjCT2Zg>Beyond
                    > >belief
                    > ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christianity+today&w1=Hi
                    > storical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+
                    > christianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=gUB1PVMB5Ggzi6ybPV-6Mg>Christianity
                    > >today
                    > ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Mere+christianity&w1=His
                    > torical+jesus&w2=Beyond+belief&w3=Christianity+today&w4=Mere+c
                    > hristianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=ctyEs8znv201GmPOMWz16w>Mere
                    > >christianity
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >----------
                    > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > >
                    > > * Visit your group
                    > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2>crosstalk2" on the web.
                    > > *
                    > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > *
                    > >
                    > <mailto:crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubsc
                    > ribe>crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > *
                    > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >----------
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > --------------------~-->
                    > Everything you need is one click away.  Make Yahoo! your home
                    > page now.
                    > http://us.click.yahoo.com/AHchtC/4FxNAA/yQLSAA/.1VolB/TM
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------
                    > ------~->
                    >
                    > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                    >
                    > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                    > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
                    > crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                    > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Bob Dietel
                    ... Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. / The Didache: Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      James Spinti wrote:

                      >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:
                      >
                      >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                      >by Aaron Milavec
                      >Paulist Press, 2003
                      >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                      >ISBN: 0809105373
                      >List Price: $64.95
                      >
                      >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                      Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                      second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                      Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                      of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                      --

                      --Bob Dietel, vicar
                      --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                      -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                      -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                      -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                    • Jim West
                      ... Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Bob Dietel wrote:

                        >
                        > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                        > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                        > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                        > of the LP is in pp 134-138.

                        Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296.

                        Jim



                        --
                        Jim West, ThD

                        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                        http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                      • James Spinti
                        By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or later. What does
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                          That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                          later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                          James
                          ________________________________
                          James Spinti
                          Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                          Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                          Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                          jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                          Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                          Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                          Fax: 574-269-6788



                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Dietel
                          > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:46 AM
                          > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                          >
                          >
                          > James Spinti wrote:
                          >
                          > >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache
                          > early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in
                          > his huge tome:
                          > >
                          > >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest
                          > Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                          > >by Aaron Milavec
                          > >Paulist Press, 2003
                          > >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                          > >ISBN: 0809105373
                          > >List Price: $64.95
                          > >
                          > >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.
                          >
                          > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                          > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                          > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                          > of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                          > --
                          >
                          > --Bob Dietel, vicar
                          > --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                          > -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                          > -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                          > -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > --------------------~-->
                          > You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's
                          > free. See how.
                          > http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/.1VolB/TM
                          > --------------------------------------------------------------
                          > ------~->
                          >
                          > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                          >
                          > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                          > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
                          > crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                          > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Jack Kilmon
                          ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ... WSas there
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM
                            Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                            > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                            >>With apologies for cross posting.
                            >>
                            >>I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                            >>for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                            >>
                            >>I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                            >>that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                            >>I will need to deal with.
                            >>
                            >>But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                            >>there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                            >>not neglect given the aim of the book .
                            >
                            > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                            > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                            > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                            > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                            > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                            > or so.
                            >
                            > Bob

                            WSas there not a publication by Oxford University Press about 10 years ago
                            of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which included a version of ther LP?

                            Jack

                            Jack Kilmon
                          • Tony Buglass
                            James Spinti wrote: By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              James Spinti wrote:
                              By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                              That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                              later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                              Crossan discusses the Lord's Prayer in The Historical Jesus p.293, and
                              refers to the Didache's version. He thinks it is an "independent rendition"
                              of the version known to Matthew. He thinks Luke has used the version in Q,
                              and Matthew has replaced it with the version used in his own community. As
                              far as the Didache himself is concerned, he includes it in his
                              stratification of the Jesus Tradition (p.427f). He places the first part of
                              it in his 3rd stratum (80-120) - that is Did.1:1-3a, 2:2-16:2. He thinks
                              1:3b-2:1 is a later insertion, independent of the intracanonical gospels.
                              He suggests also that the apocalyptic source behind Did.16:3-5 "may have
                              been known by Mk.13 or more likely by Mt.24." He places Did.1:3b-2:1 in the
                              4th stratum (120-150).

                              Cheers,
                              Rev Tony Buglass
                              Superintendent Minister
                              Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                            • johnestaton
                              ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Jeffrey,
                                >
                                > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
                                > similar to me.
                                >
                                > What is the age of the kaddish?
                                >
                                > Liz Fried
                                >
                                > Ann Arbor

                                JES
                                Lisbeth,
                                Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
                                widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
                                prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
                                for its early provenance.

                                Best Wishes

                                JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
                                Penistone, Sheffield UK
                                www.christianreflection.org.uk
                              • Mark Preece
                                ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                  >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                  >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                  >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

                                  And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                  problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                  to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
                                  that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
                                  more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

                                  I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                  not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                  I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                  would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                  guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                  people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
                                  to the end of their lives.

                                  Peace,

                                  Mark.

                                  The Rev. Mark Preece
                                  Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                  King of Prussia, PA
                                • Jack Kilmon
                                  ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
                                    To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Cc: <mwp@...>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                    > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                    >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                    >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                    >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
                                    >
                                    > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                    > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                    > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
                                    > not
                                    > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
                                    > There's
                                    > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
                                    >
                                    > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                    > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                    > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                    > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                    > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                    > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
                                    > "daddy"
                                    > to the end of their lives.
                                    >
                                    > Peace,
                                    >
                                    > Mark.
                                    >
                                    > The Rev. Mark Preece
                                    > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                    > King of Prussia, PA


                                    I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
                                    (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
                                    plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
                                    emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
                                    Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
                                    phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
                                    or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

                                    Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

                                    Jack

                                    Jack Kilmon
                                    San Marcos, Texas
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.