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Re: [XTalk] LP book

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing. But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1 7:36 AM
      Gordon Raynal wrote:

      > Hi Jeffrey,
      >
      > Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
      > from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
      > this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
      > lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
      > presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
      > language is something that should be noted.

      Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.

      But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
      authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work on the
      LP you think need to be discussed.

      And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_ is online
      anywhere?

      Jeffrey


      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Gordon Raynal
      Hi Jeffrey, ... Glad that will be included! ... Perhaps Ted Weeden knows. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1 8:22 AM
        Hi Jeffrey,
        On Jun 1, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

        >
        >
        > Gordon Raynal wrote:
        >
        >> Hi Jeffrey,
        >>
        >> Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
        >> from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
        >> this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of
        >> the
        >> lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
        >> presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
        >> language is something that should be noted.
        >
        > Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.
        >
        > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for
        > the names of
        > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose
        > work on the
        > LP you think need to be discussed.

        Glad that will be included!
        >
        > And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_
        > is online
        > anywhere?

        Perhaps Ted Weeden knows.

        Gordon Raynal
        Inman, SC
      • James Crossley
        Susan Jeffers wrote: Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1 8:35 AM
          Susan Jeffers wrote:
          'Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language" of the Lord's Prayer....'

          I don't know if it worth mentioning but apparently Matthew Black once read out an Aramaic LP on BBC Radio 4 here in the UK and it was repeated as one of the week's highlights. I don't remember when this happened but a few older colleagues have mentioned it to me over the years.

          James Crossley,

          University of Sheffield


          ---------------------------------
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        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled The Lord s Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus? in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 1 8:41 AM
            I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled "The Lord's Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus?" in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published "Behind and Before the Lord's Prayer" in Vol 11:3.

            Does anyone have a copy of these articles?

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Jeff Peterson
            ... It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr s JTS article Abba Isn t Daddy is important in assessing Jesus attitude towards God, which Jeremias
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 1 8:50 AM
              On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

              > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
              > for the names of
              > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
              > whose work on the
              > LP you think need to be discussed.


              It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
              "Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
              God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses. (I've been
              reading Barr recently and have the impression that his work has had
              less influence than its quality merits; I'd be interested to know
              whether others share this impression, and what the explanation might
              be; I have a hunch one factor is that so much of his work takes the
              form of critique of others' theses rather than putting forward his own.)

              Also, I find Gerhard Lohfink helpful on the prayer in JESUS AND
              COMMUNITY, especially on "hallowed by thy name" as reflecting
              Ezekiel's hope for the reunion of Israel; similarly John Meier in A
              MARGINAL JEW, vol. 2.

              Jeff Peterson
              Austin Graduate School of Theology
            • Ken Olson
              Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 1 10:50 AM
                Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                <<But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the
                names of
                authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work
                on the
                LP you think need to be discussed.<<

                I see you've got a whole section on origins emphasizing Goulder. There's a
                lot of work out there that resembles Goulder's thesis that one of the
                evangelists (or his "community") composed the Lord's prayer from individual
                traditions with redactional additions, but still allows room for
                form-critical transmission [S. Van Tilborg, NovT 14.2( 1972) 94-105] and/or
                Q [Hal Taussig/Jesus Seminar, Forum 49 (1998) 25-41] and accumulated textual
                additions [J. C. O'Neill, JSNT 51 (1993) 3-25].

                I would still vote for Goulder's thesis in the simple form. One of the
                major arguments against Goulder is Jeremias' assertion that liturgical texts
                always grow during transmission. Charlesworth and company show this is not
                true in regard to Josephus' use of prayers from Maccabees and
                Kings/Chronicles and Charlesworth even provides the Aramaic form of Psalm
                15.1-2 as an example of a later, shorter, form which is completely contained
                in a longer form of liturgical text [Charlesworth, James H., ed., The Lord's
                Prayer and Other Prayer Texts from the Greco-Roman Era (Valley Forge,
                Pennsylvania: TPI, 1994)].

                Hope this helps, but i imagine you've already looked at these.

                Best,

                Ken

                Kenneth A. Olson
                MA, History, University of Maryland
                PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
              • Jack Kilmon
                Susan: I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not credible. Jack Kilmon ... From: Susan Jeffers To:
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 1 3:10 PM
                  Susan:
                  I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                  credible.

                  Jack Kilmon


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Susan Jeffers" <susan@...>
                  To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:41 AM
                  Subject: [XTalk] LP book


                  > Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
                  > Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
                  > the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
                  > should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
                  > it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
                  > of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
                  > specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
                  > persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
                  > Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
                  > available online on amazon.com.
                  >
                  > Susan Jeffers
                  >
                  > Jeffey Gibson wrote:
                  > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                  > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                  > not neglect given the aim of the book .
                  >
                  >
                  > -----------------------------------------------
                  > EMail: susan@...
                  > Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                  ... Would you care to state why? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail jgibson000@comcast.net
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 1 3:15 PM
                    Jack Kilmon wrote:

                    > Susan:
                    > I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                    > credible.

                    Would you care to state why?

                    Jeffrey
                    --
                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                    Chicago, Illinois
                    e-mail jgibson000@...
                  • Jack Kilmon
                    ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ...
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 1 3:52 PM
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
                      Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                      >
                      >
                      > Jack Kilmon wrote:
                      >
                      >> Susan:
                      >> I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                      >> credible.
                      >
                      > Would you care to state why?
                      >
                      > Jeffrey


                      Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                      Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                      Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                      Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                      on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                      paraphrase.
                      For example:

                      Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak

                      Abba n. Father

                      d'wushMAya in heaven

                      yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)

                      shmak name-your

                      Klotz translates this as:

                      O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                      useful.

                      It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                      Jack

                      Jack Kilmon
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      ... Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically, with Second Temple Jewish prayers. It would seem that those people who think
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 1 4:56 PM
                        Jack Kilmon wrote:

                        > Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                        > Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                        > Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                        > Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                        > on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                        > paraphrase.
                        > For example:
                        >
                        > Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak
                        >
                        > Abba n. Father
                        >
                        > d'wushMAya in heaven
                        >
                        > yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)
                        >
                        > shmak name-your
                        >
                        > Klotz translates this as:
                        >
                        > O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                        > useful.
                        >
                        > It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                        Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically,
                        with Second Temple Jewish prayers.

                        It would seem that those people who think this sort of nonsense is really what
                        Jesus was praying for in the LP are working not from an historical investigation
                        of the theology of 1st century Judaism, but from a theological apriori about who
                        God is and what "religion" is all about.

                        Jeffrey
                        --
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                        Chicago, Illinois
                        e-mail jgibson000@...
                      • Tobias Hägerland
                        ... for the names of ... whose work on the ... I think the following book deserves to be discussed: M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 1 11:34 PM
                          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                          <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                          > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                          for the names of
                          > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                          whose work on the
                          > LP you think need to be discussed.

                          I think the following book deserves to be discussed:

                          M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à la prière des
                          disciples (Paris: Gallimard, 2001). Also available in German
                          translation: Das Vaterunser: Vom Gebet Jesu zum Gebet der Jünger
                          (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2002).

                          Philonenko argues that the LP was originally two different prayers.

                          /Tobias Hägerland
                          Göteborg University, Sweden
                        • Bob Schacht
                          ... Isn t the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss * What role it played in the community that used the Didache * Whether the Didache
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 2 12:52 AM
                            At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                            >With apologies for cross posting.
                            >
                            >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                            >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                            >
                            >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                            >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                            >I will need to deal with.
                            >
                            >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                            >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                            >not neglect given the aim of the book .

                            Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                            * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                            * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                            (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                            There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                            or so.

                            Bob

                            >Yours,
                            >
                            >Jeffrey
                            >
                            >******
                            >Outline
                            >
                            >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
                            >Relationship
                            >
                            >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                            >
                            >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                            >
                            >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                            >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                            >
                            >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                            >Eschatological Prayer)
                            >
                            >The Meaning of the Petitions
                            >
                            >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                            >
                            >******
                            >--
                            >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                            >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                            >Chicago, Illinois
                            >e-mail jgibson000@...
                            >
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                          • James Spinti
                            I didn t know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome: The Didache: Faith,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 2 6:40 AM
                              I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:

                              "The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                              by Aaron Milavec
                              Paulist Press, 2003
                              1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                              ISBN: 0809105373
                              List Price: $64.95

                              He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                              HTH,
                              James
                              ________________________________
                              James Spinti
                              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                              Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                              Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                              Fax: 574-269-6788



                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht
                              > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:53 AM
                              > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                              >
                              >
                              > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                              > >With apologies for cross posting.
                              > >
                              > >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the
                              > Lord's Prayer
                              > >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                              > >
                              > >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of
                              > the topics
                              > >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the
                              > LP and that
                              > >I will need to deal with.
                              > >
                              > >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know
                              > whether you think
                              > >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                              > >not neglect given the aim of the book .
                              >
                              > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason
                              > to discuss
                              > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                              > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from
                              > Matthew) or not
                              > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                              > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the
                              > past 10 years
                              > or so.
                              >
                              > Bob
                              >
                              > >Yours,
                              > >
                              > >Jeffrey
                              > >
                              > >******
                              > >Outline
                              > >
                              > >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)
                              > and their
                              > >Relationship
                              > >
                              > >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                              > >
                              > >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                              > >
                              > >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                              > >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                              > >
                              > >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                              > >Eschatological Prayer)
                              > >
                              > >The Meaning of the Petitions
                              > >
                              > >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                              > >
                              > >******
                              > >--
                              > >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                              > >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                              > >Chicago, Illinois
                              > >e-mail jgibson000@...
                              > >
                              > >
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                              >
                            • Bob Dietel
                              ... Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. / The Didache: Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 2 7:46 AM
                                James Spinti wrote:

                                >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:
                                >
                                >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                >by Aaron Milavec
                                >Paulist Press, 2003
                                >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                >ISBN: 0809105373
                                >List Price: $64.95
                                >
                                >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                --

                                --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                              • Jim West
                                ... Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 2 8:27 AM
                                  Bob Dietel wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                  > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                  > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                  > of the LP is in pp 134-138.

                                  Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296.

                                  Jim



                                  --
                                  Jim West, ThD

                                  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                  http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                                • James Spinti
                                  By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or later. What does
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 2 8:37 AM
                                    By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                    That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                    later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                    James
                                    ________________________________
                                    James Spinti
                                    Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                    Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                    Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                    jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                    Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                    Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                    Fax: 574-269-6788



                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Dietel
                                    > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:46 AM
                                    > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > James Spinti wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache
                                    > early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in
                                    > his huge tome:
                                    > >
                                    > >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest
                                    > Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                    > >by Aaron Milavec
                                    > >Paulist Press, 2003
                                    > >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                    > >ISBN: 0809105373
                                    > >List Price: $64.95
                                    > >
                                    > >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.
                                    >
                                    > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                    > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                    > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                    > of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                    > --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                    > -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                    > -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                    > -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Jack Kilmon
                                    ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ... WSas there
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 2 9:12 AM
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                                      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                      > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                      >>With apologies for cross posting.
                                      >>
                                      >>I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                      >>for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                      >>
                                      >>I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                      >>that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                      >>I will need to deal with.
                                      >>
                                      >>But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                      >>there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                      >>not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                      >
                                      > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                      > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                      > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                      > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                      > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                      > or so.
                                      >
                                      > Bob

                                      WSas there not a publication by Oxford University Press about 10 years ago
                                      of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which included a version of ther LP?

                                      Jack

                                      Jack Kilmon
                                    • Tony Buglass
                                      James Spinti wrote: By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 2 9:57 AM
                                        James Spinti wrote:
                                        By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                        That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                        later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                        Crossan discusses the Lord's Prayer in The Historical Jesus p.293, and
                                        refers to the Didache's version. He thinks it is an "independent rendition"
                                        of the version known to Matthew. He thinks Luke has used the version in Q,
                                        and Matthew has replaced it with the version used in his own community. As
                                        far as the Didache himself is concerned, he includes it in his
                                        stratification of the Jesus Tradition (p.427f). He places the first part of
                                        it in his 3rd stratum (80-120) - that is Did.1:1-3a, 2:2-16:2. He thinks
                                        1:3b-2:1 is a later insertion, independent of the intracanonical gospels.
                                        He suggests also that the apocalyptic source behind Did.16:3-5 "may have
                                        been known by Mk.13 or more likely by Mt.24." He places Did.1:3b-2:1 in the
                                        4th stratum (120-150).

                                        Cheers,
                                        Rev Tony Buglass
                                        Superintendent Minister
                                        Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                                      • johnestaton
                                        ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 2 11:42 AM
                                          --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Jeffrey,
                                          >
                                          > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
                                          > similar to me.
                                          >
                                          > What is the age of the kaddish?
                                          >
                                          > Liz Fried
                                          >
                                          > Ann Arbor

                                          JES
                                          Lisbeth,
                                          Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
                                          widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                          kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
                                          prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
                                          for its early provenance.

                                          Best Wishes

                                          JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
                                          Penistone, Sheffield UK
                                          www.christianreflection.org.uk
                                        • Mark Preece
                                          ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 6 9:02 AM
                                            At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                            >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                            >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                            >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

                                            And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                            problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                            to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
                                            that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
                                            more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

                                            I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                            not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                            I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                            would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                            guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                            people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
                                            to the end of their lives.

                                            Peace,

                                            Mark.

                                            The Rev. Mark Preece
                                            Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                            King of Prussia, PA
                                          • Jack Kilmon
                                            ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 6 11:21 AM
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
                                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Cc: <mwp@...>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                              > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                              >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                              >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                              >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
                                              >
                                              > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                              > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                              > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
                                              > not
                                              > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
                                              > There's
                                              > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
                                              >
                                              > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                              > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                              > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                              > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                              > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                              > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
                                              > "daddy"
                                              > to the end of their lives.
                                              >
                                              > Peace,
                                              >
                                              > Mark.
                                              >
                                              > The Rev. Mark Preece
                                              > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                              > King of Prussia, PA


                                              I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
                                              (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
                                              plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
                                              emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
                                              Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
                                              phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
                                              or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

                                              Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

                                              Jack

                                              Jack Kilmon
                                              San Marcos, Texas
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