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  • Susan Jeffers
    Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz s book Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
      Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
      the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
      should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
      it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
      of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
      specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
      persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
      Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
      available online on amazon.com.

      Susan Jeffers

      Jeffey Gibson wrote:
      But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
      there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
      not neglect given the aim of the book .


      -----------------------------------------------
      EMail: susan@...
      Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      Dear Jeffrey, What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very similar to me. What is the age of the kaddish? Liz Fried Ann Arbor _____
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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        Dear Jeffrey,

        What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
        similar to me.

        What is the age of the kaddish?

        Liz Fried

        Ann Arbor



        _____

        From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Loren Rosson
        Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:03 AM
        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book



        Jeffrey wrote:

        > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on
        > the Lord's Prayer
        > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_
        > Series.

        I'm looking forward to this, Jeffrey.

        > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the
        > Baptist?)

        Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor
        who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)?
        I'm surprised this view isn't more common.

        Loren Rosson III
        Nashua NH
        http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/

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      • Gordon Raynal
        Hi Jeffrey, Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig from Jesus Before God? Whatever you think of the overall thesis, this
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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          Hi Jeffrey,

          Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
          from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
          this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
          lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
          presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
          language is something that should be noted.

          Gordon Raynal
          Inman, SC
          On May 31, 2006, at 8:58 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

          > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
          > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
          >
          > I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
          > that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and
          > that
          > I will need to deal with.
          >
          > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you
          > think
          > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
          > not neglect given the aim of the book .
          >
          > Yours,
          >
          > Jeffrey
          >
          > ******
          > Outline
          >
          > Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
          > Relationship
          >
          > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
          >
          > The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
          >
          > How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
          > thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
          >
          > The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
          > Eschatological Prayer)
          >
          > The Meaning of the Petitions
          >
          > The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing. But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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            Gordon Raynal wrote:

            > Hi Jeffrey,
            >
            > Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
            > from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
            > this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
            > lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
            > presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
            > language is something that should be noted.

            Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.

            But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
            authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work on the
            LP you think need to be discussed.

            And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_ is online
            anywhere?

            Jeffrey


            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Gordon Raynal
            Hi Jeffrey, ... Glad that will be included! ... Perhaps Ted Weeden knows. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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              Hi Jeffrey,
              On Jun 1, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gordon Raynal wrote:
              >
              >> Hi Jeffrey,
              >>
              >> Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
              >> from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
              >> this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of
              >> the
              >> lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
              >> presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
              >> language is something that should be noted.
              >
              > Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.
              >
              > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for
              > the names of
              > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose
              > work on the
              > LP you think need to be discussed.

              Glad that will be included!
              >
              > And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_
              > is online
              > anywhere?

              Perhaps Ted Weeden knows.

              Gordon Raynal
              Inman, SC
            • James Crossley
              Susan Jeffers wrote: Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                Susan Jeffers wrote:
                'Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language" of the Lord's Prayer....'

                I don't know if it worth mentioning but apparently Matthew Black once read out an Aramaic LP on BBC Radio 4 here in the UK and it was repeated as one of the week's highlights. I don't remember when this happened but a few older colleagues have mentioned it to me over the years.

                James Crossley,

                University of Sheffield


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              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled The Lord s Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus? in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                  I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled "The Lord's Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus?" in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published "Behind and Before the Lord's Prayer" in Vol 11:3.

                  Does anyone have a copy of these articles?

                  Yours,

                  Jeffrey
                  --
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  Chicago, Illinois
                  e-mail jgibson000@...
                • Jeff Peterson
                  ... It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr s JTS article Abba Isn t Daddy is important in assessing Jesus attitude towards God, which Jeremias
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                    On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                    > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                    > for the names of
                    > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                    > whose work on the
                    > LP you think need to be discussed.


                    It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                    "Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                    God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses. (I've been
                    reading Barr recently and have the impression that his work has had
                    less influence than its quality merits; I'd be interested to know
                    whether others share this impression, and what the explanation might
                    be; I have a hunch one factor is that so much of his work takes the
                    form of critique of others' theses rather than putting forward his own.)

                    Also, I find Gerhard Lohfink helpful on the prayer in JESUS AND
                    COMMUNITY, especially on "hallowed by thy name" as reflecting
                    Ezekiel's hope for the reunion of Israel; similarly John Meier in A
                    MARGINAL JEW, vol. 2.

                    Jeff Peterson
                    Austin Graduate School of Theology
                  • Ken Olson
                    Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                      Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                      <<But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the
                      names of
                      authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work
                      on the
                      LP you think need to be discussed.<<

                      I see you've got a whole section on origins emphasizing Goulder. There's a
                      lot of work out there that resembles Goulder's thesis that one of the
                      evangelists (or his "community") composed the Lord's prayer from individual
                      traditions with redactional additions, but still allows room for
                      form-critical transmission [S. Van Tilborg, NovT 14.2( 1972) 94-105] and/or
                      Q [Hal Taussig/Jesus Seminar, Forum 49 (1998) 25-41] and accumulated textual
                      additions [J. C. O'Neill, JSNT 51 (1993) 3-25].

                      I would still vote for Goulder's thesis in the simple form. One of the
                      major arguments against Goulder is Jeremias' assertion that liturgical texts
                      always grow during transmission. Charlesworth and company show this is not
                      true in regard to Josephus' use of prayers from Maccabees and
                      Kings/Chronicles and Charlesworth even provides the Aramaic form of Psalm
                      15.1-2 as an example of a later, shorter, form which is completely contained
                      in a longer form of liturgical text [Charlesworth, James H., ed., The Lord's
                      Prayer and Other Prayer Texts from the Greco-Roman Era (Valley Forge,
                      Pennsylvania: TPI, 1994)].

                      Hope this helps, but i imagine you've already looked at these.

                      Best,

                      Ken

                      Kenneth A. Olson
                      MA, History, University of Maryland
                      PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
                    • Jack Kilmon
                      Susan: I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not credible. Jack Kilmon ... From: Susan Jeffers To:
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                        Susan:
                        I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                        credible.

                        Jack Kilmon


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Susan Jeffers" <susan@...>
                        To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:41 AM
                        Subject: [XTalk] LP book


                        > Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
                        > Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
                        > the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
                        > should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
                        > it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
                        > of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
                        > specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
                        > persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
                        > Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
                        > available online on amazon.com.
                        >
                        > Susan Jeffers
                        >
                        > Jeffey Gibson wrote:
                        > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                        > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                        > not neglect given the aim of the book .
                        >
                        >
                        > -----------------------------------------------
                        > EMail: susan@...
                        > Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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                      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                        ... Would you care to state why? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail jgibson000@comcast.net
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                          Jack Kilmon wrote:

                          > Susan:
                          > I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                          > credible.

                          Would you care to state why?

                          Jeffrey
                          --
                          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                          Chicago, Illinois
                          e-mail jgibson000@...
                        • Jack Kilmon
                          ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ...
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
                            Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                            >
                            >
                            > Jack Kilmon wrote:
                            >
                            >> Susan:
                            >> I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                            >> credible.
                            >
                            > Would you care to state why?
                            >
                            > Jeffrey


                            Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                            Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                            Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                            Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                            on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                            paraphrase.
                            For example:

                            Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak

                            Abba n. Father

                            d'wushMAya in heaven

                            yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)

                            shmak name-your

                            Klotz translates this as:

                            O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                            useful.

                            It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                            Jack

                            Jack Kilmon
                          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                            ... Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically, with Second Temple Jewish prayers. It would seem that those people who think
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                              Jack Kilmon wrote:

                              > Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                              > Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                              > Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                              > Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                              > on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                              > paraphrase.
                              > For example:
                              >
                              > Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak
                              >
                              > Abba n. Father
                              >
                              > d'wushMAya in heaven
                              >
                              > yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)
                              >
                              > shmak name-your
                              >
                              > Klotz translates this as:
                              >
                              > O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                              > useful.
                              >
                              > It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                              Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically,
                              with Second Temple Jewish prayers.

                              It would seem that those people who think this sort of nonsense is really what
                              Jesus was praying for in the LP are working not from an historical investigation
                              of the theology of 1st century Judaism, but from a theological apriori about who
                              God is and what "religion" is all about.

                              Jeffrey
                              --
                              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                              Chicago, Illinois
                              e-mail jgibson000@...
                            • Tobias Hägerland
                              ... for the names of ... whose work on the ... I think the following book deserves to be discussed: M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                                <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                                > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                                for the names of
                                > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                                whose work on the
                                > LP you think need to be discussed.

                                I think the following book deserves to be discussed:

                                M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à la prière des
                                disciples (Paris: Gallimard, 2001). Also available in German
                                translation: Das Vaterunser: Vom Gebet Jesu zum Gebet der Jünger
                                (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2002).

                                Philonenko argues that the LP was originally two different prayers.

                                /Tobias Hägerland
                                Göteborg University, Sweden
                              • Bob Schacht
                                ... Isn t the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss * What role it played in the community that used the Didache * Whether the Didache
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                  At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                  >With apologies for cross posting.
                                  >
                                  >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                  >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                  >
                                  >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                  >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                  >I will need to deal with.
                                  >
                                  >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                  >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                  >not neglect given the aim of the book .

                                  Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                  * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                  * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                  (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                  There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                  or so.

                                  Bob

                                  >Yours,
                                  >
                                  >Jeffrey
                                  >
                                  >******
                                  >Outline
                                  >
                                  >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
                                  >Relationship
                                  >
                                  >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                                  >
                                  >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                                  >
                                  >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                                  >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                                  >
                                  >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                                  >Eschatological Prayer)
                                  >
                                  >The Meaning of the Petitions
                                  >
                                  >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                                  >
                                  >******
                                  >--
                                  >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                  >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                  >Chicago, Illinois
                                  >e-mail jgibson000@...
                                  >
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                                • James Spinti
                                  I didn t know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome: The Didache: Faith,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                    I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:

                                    "The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                    by Aaron Milavec
                                    Paulist Press, 2003
                                    1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                    ISBN: 0809105373
                                    List Price: $64.95

                                    He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                    HTH,
                                    James
                                    ________________________________
                                    James Spinti
                                    Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                    Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                    Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                    jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                    Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                    Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                    Fax: 574-269-6788



                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht
                                    > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:53 AM
                                    > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                    > >With apologies for cross posting.
                                    > >
                                    > >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the
                                    > Lord's Prayer
                                    > >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                    > >
                                    > >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of
                                    > the topics
                                    > >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the
                                    > LP and that
                                    > >I will need to deal with.
                                    > >
                                    > >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know
                                    > whether you think
                                    > >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                    > >not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                    >
                                    > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason
                                    > to discuss
                                    > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                    > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from
                                    > Matthew) or not
                                    > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                    > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the
                                    > past 10 years
                                    > or so.
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    > >Yours,
                                    > >
                                    > >Jeffrey
                                    > >
                                    > >******
                                    > >Outline
                                    > >
                                    > >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)
                                    > and their
                                    > >Relationship
                                    > >
                                    > >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                                    > >
                                    > >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                                    > >
                                    > >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                                    > >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                                    > >
                                    > >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                                    > >Eschatological Prayer)
                                    > >
                                    > >The Meaning of the Petitions
                                    > >
                                    > >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                                    > >
                                    > >******
                                    > >--
                                    > >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                    > >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                    > >Chicago, Illinois
                                    > >e-mail jgibson000@...
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                  • Bob Dietel
                                    ... Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. / The Didache: Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                      James Spinti wrote:

                                      >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:
                                      >
                                      >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                      >by Aaron Milavec
                                      >Paulist Press, 2003
                                      >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                      >ISBN: 0809105373
                                      >List Price: $64.95
                                      >
                                      >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                      Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                      second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                      Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                      of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                      --

                                      --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                      --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                      -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                      -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                      -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                    • Jim West
                                      ... Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                        Bob Dietel wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                        > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                        > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                        > of the LP is in pp 134-138.

                                        Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296.

                                        Jim



                                        --
                                        Jim West, ThD

                                        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                        http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                                      • James Spinti
                                        By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or later. What does
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                          That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                          later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                          James
                                          ________________________________
                                          James Spinti
                                          Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                          Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                          Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                          jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                          Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                          Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                          Fax: 574-269-6788



                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Dietel
                                          > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:46 AM
                                          > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > James Spinti wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache
                                          > early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in
                                          > his huge tome:
                                          > >
                                          > >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest
                                          > Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                          > >by Aaron Milavec
                                          > >Paulist Press, 2003
                                          > >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                          > >ISBN: 0809105373
                                          > >List Price: $64.95
                                          > >
                                          > >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.
                                          >
                                          > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                          > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                          > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                          > of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                          > --
                                          >
                                          > --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                          > --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                          > -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                          > -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                          > -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
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                                        • Jack Kilmon
                                          ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ... WSas there
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                                            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                            > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                            >>With apologies for cross posting.
                                            >>
                                            >>I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                            >>for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                            >>
                                            >>I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                            >>that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                            >>I will need to deal with.
                                            >>
                                            >>But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                            >>there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                            >>not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                            >
                                            > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                            > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                            > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                            > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                            > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                            > or so.
                                            >
                                            > Bob

                                            WSas there not a publication by Oxford University Press about 10 years ago
                                            of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which included a version of ther LP?

                                            Jack

                                            Jack Kilmon
                                          • Tony Buglass
                                            James Spinti wrote: By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              James Spinti wrote:
                                              By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                              That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                              later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                              Crossan discusses the Lord's Prayer in The Historical Jesus p.293, and
                                              refers to the Didache's version. He thinks it is an "independent rendition"
                                              of the version known to Matthew. He thinks Luke has used the version in Q,
                                              and Matthew has replaced it with the version used in his own community. As
                                              far as the Didache himself is concerned, he includes it in his
                                              stratification of the Jesus Tradition (p.427f). He places the first part of
                                              it in his 3rd stratum (80-120) - that is Did.1:1-3a, 2:2-16:2. He thinks
                                              1:3b-2:1 is a later insertion, independent of the intracanonical gospels.
                                              He suggests also that the apocalyptic source behind Did.16:3-5 "may have
                                              been known by Mk.13 or more likely by Mt.24." He places Did.1:3b-2:1 in the
                                              4th stratum (120-150).

                                              Cheers,
                                              Rev Tony Buglass
                                              Superintendent Minister
                                              Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                                            • johnestaton
                                              ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Dear Jeffrey,
                                                >
                                                > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
                                                > similar to me.
                                                >
                                                > What is the age of the kaddish?
                                                >
                                                > Liz Fried
                                                >
                                                > Ann Arbor

                                                JES
                                                Lisbeth,
                                                Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
                                                widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                                kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
                                                prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
                                                for its early provenance.

                                                Best Wishes

                                                JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
                                                Penistone, Sheffield UK
                                                www.christianreflection.org.uk
                                              • Mark Preece
                                                ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                                  >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                                  >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                                  >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

                                                  And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                                  problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                                  to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
                                                  that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
                                                  more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

                                                  I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                                  not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                                  I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                                  would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                                  guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                                  people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
                                                  to the end of their lives.

                                                  Peace,

                                                  Mark.

                                                  The Rev. Mark Preece
                                                  Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                                  King of Prussia, PA
                                                • Jack Kilmon
                                                  ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
                                                    To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Cc: <mwp@...>
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                                    > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                                    >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                                    >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                                    >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
                                                    >
                                                    > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                                    > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                                    > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
                                                    > not
                                                    > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
                                                    > There's
                                                    > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
                                                    >
                                                    > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                                    > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                                    > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                                    > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                                    > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                                    > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
                                                    > "daddy"
                                                    > to the end of their lives.
                                                    >
                                                    > Peace,
                                                    >
                                                    > Mark.
                                                    >
                                                    > The Rev. Mark Preece
                                                    > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                                    > King of Prussia, PA


                                                    I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
                                                    (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
                                                    plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
                                                    emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
                                                    Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
                                                    phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
                                                    or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

                                                    Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

                                                    Jack

                                                    Jack Kilmon
                                                    San Marcos, Texas
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