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Re: [XTalk] LP book

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  • Loren Rosson
    ... I m looking forward to this, Jeffrey. ... Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)? I m
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
      Jeffrey wrote:

      > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on
      > the Lord's Prayer
      > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_
      > Series.

      I'm looking forward to this, Jeffrey.

      > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the
      > Baptist?)

      Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor
      who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)?
      I'm surprised this view isn't more common.

      Loren Rosson III
      Nashua NH
      http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/

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    • Susan Jeffers
      Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz s book Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
        Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
        Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
        the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
        should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
        it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
        of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
        specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
        persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
        Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
        available online on amazon.com.

        Susan Jeffers

        Jeffey Gibson wrote:
        But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
        there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
        not neglect given the aim of the book .


        -----------------------------------------------
        EMail: susan@...
        Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lisbeth S. Fried
        Dear Jeffrey, What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very similar to me. What is the age of the kaddish? Liz Fried Ann Arbor _____
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
          Dear Jeffrey,

          What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
          similar to me.

          What is the age of the kaddish?

          Liz Fried

          Ann Arbor



          _____

          From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Loren Rosson
          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:03 AM
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book



          Jeffrey wrote:

          > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on
          > the Lord's Prayer
          > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_
          > Series.

          I'm looking forward to this, Jeffrey.

          > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the
          > Baptist?)

          Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor
          who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)?
          I'm surprised this view isn't more common.

          Loren Rosson III
          Nashua NH
          http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/

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        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi Jeffrey, Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig from Jesus Before God? Whatever you think of the overall thesis, this
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
            Hi Jeffrey,

            Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
            from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
            this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
            lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
            presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
            language is something that should be noted.

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
            On May 31, 2006, at 8:58 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

            > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
            > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
            >
            > I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
            > that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and
            > that
            > I will need to deal with.
            >
            > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you
            > think
            > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
            > not neglect given the aim of the book .
            >
            > Yours,
            >
            > Jeffrey
            >
            > ******
            > Outline
            >
            > Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
            > Relationship
            >
            > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
            >
            > The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
            >
            > How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
            > thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
            >
            > The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
            > Eschatological Prayer)
            >
            > The Meaning of the Petitions
            >
            > The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing. But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
              Gordon Raynal wrote:

              > Hi Jeffrey,
              >
              > Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
              > from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
              > this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
              > lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
              > presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
              > language is something that should be noted.

              Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.

              But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
              authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work on the
              LP you think need to be discussed.

              And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_ is online
              anywhere?

              Jeffrey


              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Gordon Raynal
              Hi Jeffrey, ... Glad that will be included! ... Perhaps Ted Weeden knows. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                Hi Jeffrey,
                On Jun 1, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                >
                >
                > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                >
                >> Hi Jeffrey,
                >>
                >> Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
                >> from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
                >> this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of
                >> the
                >> lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
                >> presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
                >> language is something that should be noted.
                >
                > Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.
                >
                > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for
                > the names of
                > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose
                > work on the
                > LP you think need to be discussed.

                Glad that will be included!
                >
                > And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_
                > is online
                > anywhere?

                Perhaps Ted Weeden knows.

                Gordon Raynal
                Inman, SC
              • James Crossley
                Susan Jeffers wrote: Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                  Susan Jeffers wrote:
                  'Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language" of the Lord's Prayer....'

                  I don't know if it worth mentioning but apparently Matthew Black once read out an Aramaic LP on BBC Radio 4 here in the UK and it was repeated as one of the week's highlights. I don't remember when this happened but a few older colleagues have mentioned it to me over the years.

                  James Crossley,

                  University of Sheffield


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                • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                  I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled The Lord s Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus? in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                    I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled "The Lord's Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus?" in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published "Behind and Before the Lord's Prayer" in Vol 11:3.

                    Does anyone have a copy of these articles?

                    Yours,

                    Jeffrey
                    --
                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                    Chicago, Illinois
                    e-mail jgibson000@...
                  • Jeff Peterson
                    ... It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr s JTS article Abba Isn t Daddy is important in assessing Jesus attitude towards God, which Jeremias
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                      On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                      > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                      > for the names of
                      > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                      > whose work on the
                      > LP you think need to be discussed.


                      It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                      "Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                      God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses. (I've been
                      reading Barr recently and have the impression that his work has had
                      less influence than its quality merits; I'd be interested to know
                      whether others share this impression, and what the explanation might
                      be; I have a hunch one factor is that so much of his work takes the
                      form of critique of others' theses rather than putting forward his own.)

                      Also, I find Gerhard Lohfink helpful on the prayer in JESUS AND
                      COMMUNITY, especially on "hallowed by thy name" as reflecting
                      Ezekiel's hope for the reunion of Israel; similarly John Meier in A
                      MARGINAL JEW, vol. 2.

                      Jeff Peterson
                      Austin Graduate School of Theology
                    • Ken Olson
                      Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                        <<But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the
                        names of
                        authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work
                        on the
                        LP you think need to be discussed.<<

                        I see you've got a whole section on origins emphasizing Goulder. There's a
                        lot of work out there that resembles Goulder's thesis that one of the
                        evangelists (or his "community") composed the Lord's prayer from individual
                        traditions with redactional additions, but still allows room for
                        form-critical transmission [S. Van Tilborg, NovT 14.2( 1972) 94-105] and/or
                        Q [Hal Taussig/Jesus Seminar, Forum 49 (1998) 25-41] and accumulated textual
                        additions [J. C. O'Neill, JSNT 51 (1993) 3-25].

                        I would still vote for Goulder's thesis in the simple form. One of the
                        major arguments against Goulder is Jeremias' assertion that liturgical texts
                        always grow during transmission. Charlesworth and company show this is not
                        true in regard to Josephus' use of prayers from Maccabees and
                        Kings/Chronicles and Charlesworth even provides the Aramaic form of Psalm
                        15.1-2 as an example of a later, shorter, form which is completely contained
                        in a longer form of liturgical text [Charlesworth, James H., ed., The Lord's
                        Prayer and Other Prayer Texts from the Greco-Roman Era (Valley Forge,
                        Pennsylvania: TPI, 1994)].

                        Hope this helps, but i imagine you've already looked at these.

                        Best,

                        Ken

                        Kenneth A. Olson
                        MA, History, University of Maryland
                        PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        Susan: I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not credible. Jack Kilmon ... From: Susan Jeffers To:
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                          Susan:
                          I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                          credible.

                          Jack Kilmon


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Susan Jeffers" <susan@...>
                          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:41 AM
                          Subject: [XTalk] LP book


                          > Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
                          > Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
                          > the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
                          > should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
                          > it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
                          > of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
                          > specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
                          > persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
                          > Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
                          > available online on amazon.com.
                          >
                          > Susan Jeffers
                          >
                          > Jeffey Gibson wrote:
                          > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                          > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                          > not neglect given the aim of the book .
                          >
                          >
                          > -----------------------------------------------
                          > EMail: susan@...
                          > Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                          ... Would you care to state why? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail jgibson000@comcast.net
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                            Jack Kilmon wrote:

                            > Susan:
                            > I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                            > credible.

                            Would you care to state why?

                            Jeffrey
                            --
                            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                            Chicago, Illinois
                            e-mail jgibson000@...
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ...
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
                              Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                              >
                              >
                              > Jack Kilmon wrote:
                              >
                              >> Susan:
                              >> I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                              >> credible.
                              >
                              > Would you care to state why?
                              >
                              > Jeffrey


                              Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                              Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                              Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                              Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                              on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                              paraphrase.
                              For example:

                              Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak

                              Abba n. Father

                              d'wushMAya in heaven

                              yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)

                              shmak name-your

                              Klotz translates this as:

                              O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                              useful.

                              It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                              Jack

                              Jack Kilmon
                            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                              ... Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically, with Second Temple Jewish prayers. It would seem that those people who think
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                                Jack Kilmon wrote:

                                > Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                                > Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                                > Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                                > Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                                > on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                                > paraphrase.
                                > For example:
                                >
                                > Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak
                                >
                                > Abba n. Father
                                >
                                > d'wushMAya in heaven
                                >
                                > yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)
                                >
                                > shmak name-your
                                >
                                > Klotz translates this as:
                                >
                                > O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                                > useful.
                                >
                                > It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                                Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically,
                                with Second Temple Jewish prayers.

                                It would seem that those people who think this sort of nonsense is really what
                                Jesus was praying for in the LP are working not from an historical investigation
                                of the theology of 1st century Judaism, but from a theological apriori about who
                                God is and what "religion" is all about.

                                Jeffrey
                                --
                                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                Chicago, Illinois
                                e-mail jgibson000@...
                              • Tobias Hägerland
                                ... for the names of ... whose work on the ... I think the following book deserves to be discussed: M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
                                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                                  <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                                  > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                                  for the names of
                                  > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                                  whose work on the
                                  > LP you think need to be discussed.

                                  I think the following book deserves to be discussed:

                                  M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à la prière des
                                  disciples (Paris: Gallimard, 2001). Also available in German
                                  translation: Das Vaterunser: Vom Gebet Jesu zum Gebet der Jünger
                                  (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2002).

                                  Philonenko argues that the LP was originally two different prayers.

                                  /Tobias Hägerland
                                  Göteborg University, Sweden
                                • Bob Schacht
                                  ... Isn t the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss * What role it played in the community that used the Didache * Whether the Didache
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                    At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                    >With apologies for cross posting.
                                    >
                                    >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                    >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                    >
                                    >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                    >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                    >I will need to deal with.
                                    >
                                    >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                    >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                    >not neglect given the aim of the book .

                                    Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                    * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                    * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                    (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                    There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                    or so.

                                    Bob

                                    >Yours,
                                    >
                                    >Jeffrey
                                    >
                                    >******
                                    >Outline
                                    >
                                    >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
                                    >Relationship
                                    >
                                    >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                                    >
                                    >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                                    >
                                    >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                                    >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                                    >
                                    >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                                    >Eschatological Prayer)
                                    >
                                    >The Meaning of the Petitions
                                    >
                                    >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                                    >
                                    >******
                                    >--
                                    >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                    >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                    >Chicago, Illinois
                                    >e-mail jgibson000@...
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • James Spinti
                                    I didn t know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome: The Didache: Faith,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                      I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:

                                      "The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                      by Aaron Milavec
                                      Paulist Press, 2003
                                      1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                      ISBN: 0809105373
                                      List Price: $64.95

                                      He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                      HTH,
                                      James
                                      ________________________________
                                      James Spinti
                                      Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                      Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                      Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                      jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                      Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                      Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                      Fax: 574-269-6788



                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht
                                      > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:53 AM
                                      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                      > >With apologies for cross posting.
                                      > >
                                      > >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the
                                      > Lord's Prayer
                                      > >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                      > >
                                      > >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of
                                      > the topics
                                      > >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the
                                      > LP and that
                                      > >I will need to deal with.
                                      > >
                                      > >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know
                                      > whether you think
                                      > >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                      > >not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                      >
                                      > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason
                                      > to discuss
                                      > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                      > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from
                                      > Matthew) or not
                                      > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                      > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the
                                      > past 10 years
                                      > or so.
                                      >
                                      > Bob
                                      >
                                      > >Yours,
                                      > >
                                      > >Jeffrey
                                      > >
                                      > >******
                                      > >Outline
                                      > >
                                      > >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)
                                      > and their
                                      > >Relationship
                                      > >
                                      > >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                                      > >
                                      > >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                                      > >
                                      > >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                                      > >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                                      > >
                                      > >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                                      > >Eschatological Prayer)
                                      > >
                                      > >The Meaning of the Petitions
                                      > >
                                      > >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                                      > >
                                      > >******
                                      > >--
                                      > >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                      > >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                      > >Chicago, Illinois
                                      > >e-mail jgibson000@...
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
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                                    • Bob Dietel
                                      ... Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. / The Didache: Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                        James Spinti wrote:

                                        >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:
                                        >
                                        >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                        >by Aaron Milavec
                                        >Paulist Press, 2003
                                        >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                        >ISBN: 0809105373
                                        >List Price: $64.95
                                        >
                                        >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                        Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                        second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                        Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                        of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                        --

                                        --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                        --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                        -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                        -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                        -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                      • Jim West
                                        ... Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                          Bob Dietel wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                          > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                          > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                          > of the LP is in pp 134-138.

                                          Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296.

                                          Jim



                                          --
                                          Jim West, ThD

                                          http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                          http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                                        • James Spinti
                                          By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or later. What does
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                            By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                            That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                            later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                            James
                                            ________________________________
                                            James Spinti
                                            Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                            Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                            Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                            jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                            Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                            Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                            Fax: 574-269-6788



                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                            > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Dietel
                                            > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:46 AM
                                            > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > James Spinti wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache
                                            > early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in
                                            > his huge tome:
                                            > >
                                            > >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest
                                            > Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                            > >by Aaron Milavec
                                            > >Paulist Press, 2003
                                            > >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                            > >ISBN: 0809105373
                                            > >List Price: $64.95
                                            > >
                                            > >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.
                                            >
                                            > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                            > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                            > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                            > of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                            > --
                                            >
                                            > --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                            > --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                            > -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                            > -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                            > -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                          • Jack Kilmon
                                            ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ... WSas there
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                              > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                              >>With apologies for cross posting.
                                              >>
                                              >>I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                              >>for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                              >>
                                              >>I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                              >>that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                              >>I will need to deal with.
                                              >>
                                              >>But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                              >>there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                              >>not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                              >
                                              > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                              > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                              > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                              > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                              > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                              > or so.
                                              >
                                              > Bob

                                              WSas there not a publication by Oxford University Press about 10 years ago
                                              of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which included a version of ther LP?

                                              Jack

                                              Jack Kilmon
                                            • Tony Buglass
                                              James Spinti wrote: By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                                James Spinti wrote:
                                                By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                                That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                                later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                                Crossan discusses the Lord's Prayer in The Historical Jesus p.293, and
                                                refers to the Didache's version. He thinks it is an "independent rendition"
                                                of the version known to Matthew. He thinks Luke has used the version in Q,
                                                and Matthew has replaced it with the version used in his own community. As
                                                far as the Didache himself is concerned, he includes it in his
                                                stratification of the Jesus Tradition (p.427f). He places the first part of
                                                it in his 3rd stratum (80-120) - that is Did.1:1-3a, 2:2-16:2. He thinks
                                                1:3b-2:1 is a later insertion, independent of the intracanonical gospels.
                                                He suggests also that the apocalyptic source behind Did.16:3-5 "may have
                                                been known by Mk.13 or more likely by Mt.24." He places Did.1:3b-2:1 in the
                                                4th stratum (120-150).

                                                Cheers,
                                                Rev Tony Buglass
                                                Superintendent Minister
                                                Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                                              • johnestaton
                                                ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Jeffrey,
                                                  >
                                                  > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
                                                  > similar to me.
                                                  >
                                                  > What is the age of the kaddish?
                                                  >
                                                  > Liz Fried
                                                  >
                                                  > Ann Arbor

                                                  JES
                                                  Lisbeth,
                                                  Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
                                                  widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                                  kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
                                                  prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
                                                  for its early provenance.

                                                  Best Wishes

                                                  JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
                                                  Penistone, Sheffield UK
                                                  www.christianreflection.org.uk
                                                • Mark Preece
                                                  ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                                    At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                                    >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                                    >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                                    >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

                                                    And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                                    problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                                    to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
                                                    that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
                                                    more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

                                                    I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                                    not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                                    I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                                    would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                                    guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                                    people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
                                                    to the end of their lives.

                                                    Peace,

                                                    Mark.

                                                    The Rev. Mark Preece
                                                    Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                                    King of Prussia, PA
                                                  • Jack Kilmon
                                                    ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
                                                      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Cc: <mwp@...>
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                                      > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                                      >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                                      >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                                      >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
                                                      >
                                                      > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                                      > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                                      > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
                                                      > not
                                                      > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
                                                      > There's
                                                      > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
                                                      >
                                                      > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                                      > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                                      > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                                      > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                                      > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                                      > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
                                                      > "daddy"
                                                      > to the end of their lives.
                                                      >
                                                      > Peace,
                                                      >
                                                      > Mark.
                                                      >
                                                      > The Rev. Mark Preece
                                                      > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                                      > King of Prussia, PA


                                                      I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
                                                      (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
                                                      plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
                                                      emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
                                                      Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
                                                      phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
                                                      or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

                                                      Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

                                                      Jack

                                                      Jack Kilmon
                                                      San Marcos, Texas
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