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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    With apologies for cross posting. I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord s Prayer for Paulist Press _What Are They Saying About_
    Message 1 of 27 , May 31, 2006
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      With apologies for cross posting.

      I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
      for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.

      I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
      that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
      I will need to deal with.

      But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
      there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
      not neglect given the aim of the book .

      Yours,

      Jeffrey

      ******
      Outline

      Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
      Relationship

      The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)

      The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)

      How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
      thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)

      The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
      Eschatological Prayer)

      The Meaning of the Petitions

      The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

      ******
      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord s Prayer for Paulist Press _What Are They Saying About_ Series. I have drawn up (and include
      Message 2 of 27 , May 31, 2006
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        I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
        for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.

        I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
        that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
        I will need to deal with.

        But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
        there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
        not neglect given the aim of the book .

        Yours,

        Jeffrey

        ******
        Outline

        Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
        Relationship

        The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)

        The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)

        How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
        thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)

        The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
        Eschatological Prayer)

        The Meaning of the Petitions

        The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

        ******
        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Loren Rosson
        ... I m looking forward to this, Jeffrey. ... Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)? I m
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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          Jeffrey wrote:

          > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on
          > the Lord's Prayer
          > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_
          > Series.

          I'm looking forward to this, Jeffrey.

          > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the
          > Baptist?)

          Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor
          who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)?
          I'm surprised this view isn't more common.

          Loren Rosson III
          Nashua NH
          http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/

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        • Susan Jeffers
          Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz s book Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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            Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
            Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
            the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
            should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
            it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
            of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
            specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
            persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
            Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
            available online on amazon.com.

            Susan Jeffers

            Jeffey Gibson wrote:
            But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
            there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
            not neglect given the aim of the book .


            -----------------------------------------------
            EMail: susan@...
            Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lisbeth S. Fried
            Dear Jeffrey, What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very similar to me. What is the age of the kaddish? Liz Fried Ann Arbor _____
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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              Dear Jeffrey,

              What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
              similar to me.

              What is the age of the kaddish?

              Liz Fried

              Ann Arbor



              _____

              From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Loren Rosson
              Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:03 AM
              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book



              Jeffrey wrote:

              > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on
              > the Lord's Prayer
              > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_
              > Series.

              I'm looking forward to this, Jeffrey.

              > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the
              > Baptist?)

              Have you been able to find anyone besides Joan Taylor
              who says the prayer originated with John (Lk 11:1)?
              I'm surprised this view isn't more common.

              Loren Rosson III
              Nashua NH
              http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/

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            • Gordon Raynal
              Hi Jeffrey, Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig from Jesus Before God? Whatever you think of the overall thesis, this
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                Hi Jeffrey,

                Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
                from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
                this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
                lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
                presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
                language is something that should be noted.

                Gordon Raynal
                Inman, SC
                On May 31, 2006, at 8:58 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                > I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                > for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                >
                > I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                > that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and
                > that
                > I will need to deal with.
                >
                > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you
                > think
                > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                > not neglect given the aim of the book .
                >
                > Yours,
                >
                > Jeffrey
                >
                > ******
                > Outline
                >
                > Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
                > Relationship
                >
                > The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                >
                > The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                >
                > How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                > thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                >
                > The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                > Eschatological Prayer)
                >
                > The Meaning of the Petitions
                >
                > The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                ... Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing. But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                  Gordon Raynal wrote:

                  > Hi Jeffrey,
                  >
                  > Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
                  > from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
                  > this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of the
                  > lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
                  > presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
                  > language is something that should be noted.

                  Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.

                  But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the names of
                  authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work on the
                  LP you think need to be discussed.

                  And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_ is online
                  anywhere?

                  Jeffrey


                  --
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  Chicago, Illinois
                  e-mail jgibson000@...
                • Gordon Raynal
                  Hi Jeffrey, ... Glad that will be included! ... Perhaps Ted Weeden knows. Gordon Raynal Inman, SC
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                    Hi Jeffrey,
                    On Jun 1, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                    >
                    >> Hi Jeffrey,
                    >>
                    >> Are you going to include the very different perspective of Hal Taussig
                    >> from "Jesus Before God?" Whatever you think of the overall thesis,
                    >> this argument includes focus on Q and a aphoristic/ wisdom focus of
                    >> the
                    >> lines of the Prayer. At a minimum I think reference to this work and
                    >> presentation for understanding the possible aphoristic nature of the
                    >> language is something that should be noted.
                    >
                    > Yes, Taussig is someone whose work on the LP I will be discussing.
                    >
                    > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for
                    > the names of
                    > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose
                    > work on the
                    > LP you think need to be discussed.

                    Glad that will be included!
                    >
                    > And can anyone tell me whether the Westar Institute's Journal _Forum_
                    > is online
                    > anywhere?

                    Perhaps Ted Weeden knows.

                    Gordon Raynal
                    Inman, SC
                  • James Crossley
                    Susan Jeffers wrote: Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                      Susan Jeffers wrote:
                      'Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic...I think you should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language" of the Lord's Prayer....'

                      I don't know if it worth mentioning but apparently Matthew Black once read out an Aramaic LP on BBC Radio 4 here in the UK and it was repeated as one of the week's highlights. I don't remember when this happened but a few older colleagues have mentioned it to me over the years.

                      James Crossley,

                      University of Sheffield


                      ---------------------------------
                      The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled The Lord s Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus? in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                        I see that Bob Funk published a paper entitled "The Lord's Prayer: Does It Go Back to Jesus?" in Vol 2:1 of the Fourth R and that Hal Taussig also published "Behind and Before the Lord's Prayer" in Vol 11:3.

                        Does anyone have a copy of these articles?

                        Yours,

                        Jeffrey
                        --
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                        Chicago, Illinois
                        e-mail jgibson000@...
                      • Jeff Peterson
                        ... It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr s JTS article Abba Isn t Daddy is important in assessing Jesus attitude towards God, which Jeremias
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                          On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                          > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                          > for the names of
                          > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                          > whose work on the
                          > LP you think need to be discussed.


                          It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                          "Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                          God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses. (I've been
                          reading Barr recently and have the impression that his work has had
                          less influence than its quality merits; I'd be interested to know
                          whether others share this impression, and what the explanation might
                          be; I have a hunch one factor is that so much of his work takes the
                          form of critique of others' theses rather than putting forward his own.)

                          Also, I find Gerhard Lohfink helpful on the prayer in JESUS AND
                          COMMUNITY, especially on "hallowed by thy name" as reflecting
                          Ezekiel's hope for the reunion of Israel; similarly John Meier in A
                          MARGINAL JEW, vol. 2.

                          Jeff Peterson
                          Austin Graduate School of Theology
                        • Ken Olson
                          Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                            Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                            <<But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members for the
                            names of
                            authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias) whose work
                            on the
                            LP you think need to be discussed.<<

                            I see you've got a whole section on origins emphasizing Goulder. There's a
                            lot of work out there that resembles Goulder's thesis that one of the
                            evangelists (or his "community") composed the Lord's prayer from individual
                            traditions with redactional additions, but still allows room for
                            form-critical transmission [S. Van Tilborg, NovT 14.2( 1972) 94-105] and/or
                            Q [Hal Taussig/Jesus Seminar, Forum 49 (1998) 25-41] and accumulated textual
                            additions [J. C. O'Neill, JSNT 51 (1993) 3-25].

                            I would still vote for Goulder's thesis in the simple form. One of the
                            major arguments against Goulder is Jeremias' assertion that liturgical texts
                            always grow during transmission. Charlesworth and company show this is not
                            true in regard to Josephus' use of prayers from Maccabees and
                            Kings/Chronicles and Charlesworth even provides the Aramaic form of Psalm
                            15.1-2 as an example of a later, shorter, form which is completely contained
                            in a longer form of liturgical text [Charlesworth, James H., ed., The Lord's
                            Prayer and Other Prayer Texts from the Greco-Roman Era (Valley Forge,
                            Pennsylvania: TPI, 1994)].

                            Hope this helps, but i imagine you've already looked at these.

                            Best,

                            Ken

                            Kenneth A. Olson
                            MA, History, University of Maryland
                            PhD Student, Religion, Duke University
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            Susan: I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not credible. Jack Kilmon ... From: Susan Jeffers To:
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                              Susan:
                              I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                              credible.

                              Jack Kilmon


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Susan Jeffers" <susan@...>
                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:41 AM
                              Subject: [XTalk] LP book


                              > Popular audiences will be familiar with the idea that Jesus spoke
                              > Aramaic, and perhaps also with Neil Douglas-Klotz's book Prayers of
                              > the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus. I think you
                              > should include some discussion of Aramaic vs Greek, what difference
                              > it makes, and how to think about the issue of the "original language"
                              > of the Lord's Prayer. In fact I'd be grateful for a footnote
                              > specifically referring to Prayers of the Cosmos, as I often encounter
                              > persons who seem sure that this book contains the "real" Lord's
                              > Prayer. Several pages, including part of the LP section, are
                              > available online on amazon.com.
                              >
                              > Susan Jeffers
                              >
                              > Jeffey Gibson wrote:
                              > But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                              > there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                              > not neglect given the aim of the book .
                              >
                              >
                              > -----------------------------------------------
                              > EMail: susan@...
                              > Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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                            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                              ... Would you care to state why? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail jgibson000@comcast.net
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                                Jack Kilmon wrote:

                                > Susan:
                                > I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                                > credible.

                                Would you care to state why?

                                Jeffrey
                                --
                                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                Chicago, Illinois
                                e-mail jgibson000@...
                              • Jack Kilmon
                                ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ...
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                                  To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jack Kilmon wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Susan:
                                  >> I agree that the Aramaic should be covered but Douglas-Klotz is not
                                  >> credible.
                                  >
                                  > Would you care to state why?
                                  >
                                  > Jeffrey


                                  Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                                  Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                                  Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                                  Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                                  on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                                  paraphrase.
                                  For example:

                                  Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak

                                  Abba n. Father

                                  d'wushMAya in heaven

                                  yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)

                                  shmak name-your

                                  Klotz translates this as:

                                  O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                                  useful.

                                  It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                                  Jack

                                  Jack Kilmon
                                • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                  ... Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically, with Second Temple Jewish prayers. It would seem that those people who think
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                                    Jack Kilmon wrote:

                                    > Sure. Douglas-Klotz is a "new agey" author who uses Syriac...the late
                                    > Eastern Aramaic of the Peshitta text and not the Judean dialect spoken by
                                    > Jesus. Part of his new age paradigm is to take Syriac words from the
                                    > Peshitta LP and reshape the prayer based on "alternate" translations based
                                    > on the primitive roots and then imaginatively expanded to a "touchey-feely
                                    > paraphrase.
                                    > For example:
                                    >
                                    > Abba d'wushMAyA, YEETqadDESH shmak
                                    >
                                    > Abba n. Father
                                    >
                                    > d'wushMAya in heaven
                                    >
                                    > yeetQADesh imp. may holy (be)
                                    >
                                    > shmak name-your
                                    >
                                    > Klotz translates this as:
                                    >
                                    > O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, Focus your light within us-make it
                                    > useful.
                                    >
                                    > It just has no place in a scholarly treatment of the Aramaic of the LP.

                                    Nor does it have any point of contact, formally or materially or thematically,
                                    with Second Temple Jewish prayers.

                                    It would seem that those people who think this sort of nonsense is really what
                                    Jesus was praying for in the LP are working not from an historical investigation
                                    of the theology of 1st century Judaism, but from a theological apriori about who
                                    God is and what "religion" is all about.

                                    Jeffrey
                                    --
                                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                    Chicago, Illinois
                                    e-mail jgibson000@...
                                  • Tobias Hägerland
                                    ... for the names of ... whose work on the ... I think the following book deserves to be discussed: M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 1, 2006
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                                      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                                      <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                                      > But in the light of your mentioning him, let me ask list members
                                      for the names of
                                      > authors (other than the obvious ones like Lohmeyer and Jeremias)
                                      whose work on the
                                      > LP you think need to be discussed.

                                      I think the following book deserves to be discussed:

                                      M. Philonenko, Le Notre Père: De la prière de Jésus à la prière des
                                      disciples (Paris: Gallimard, 2001). Also available in German
                                      translation: Das Vaterunser: Vom Gebet Jesu zum Gebet der Jünger
                                      (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2002).

                                      Philonenko argues that the LP was originally two different prayers.

                                      /Tobias Hägerland
                                      Göteborg University, Sweden
                                    • Bob Schacht
                                      ... Isn t the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss * What role it played in the community that used the Didache * Whether the Didache
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                        At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                        >With apologies for cross posting.
                                        >
                                        >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                        >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                        >
                                        >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                        >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                        >I will need to deal with.
                                        >
                                        >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                        >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                        >not neglect given the aim of the book .

                                        Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                        * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                        * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                        (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                        There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                        or so.

                                        Bob

                                        >Yours,
                                        >
                                        >Jeffrey
                                        >
                                        >******
                                        >Outline
                                        >
                                        >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache) and their
                                        >Relationship
                                        >
                                        >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                                        >
                                        >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                                        >
                                        >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                                        >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                                        >
                                        >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                                        >Eschatological Prayer)
                                        >
                                        >The Meaning of the Petitions
                                        >
                                        >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                                        >
                                        >******
                                        >--
                                        >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                        >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                        >Chicago, Illinois
                                        >e-mail jgibson000@...
                                        >
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                                        >
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                                      • James Spinti
                                        I didn t know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome: The Didache: Faith,
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:

                                          "The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                          by Aaron Milavec
                                          Paulist Press, 2003
                                          1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                          ISBN: 0809105373
                                          List Price: $64.95

                                          He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                          HTH,
                                          James
                                          ________________________________
                                          James Spinti
                                          Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                          Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                          Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                          jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                          Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                          Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                          Fax: 574-269-6788



                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht
                                          > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:53 AM
                                          > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                          > >With apologies for cross posting.
                                          > >
                                          > >I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the
                                          > Lord's Prayer
                                          > >for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                          > >
                                          > >I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of
                                          > the topics
                                          > >that I think are at the center of current discussions of the
                                          > LP and that
                                          > >I will need to deal with.
                                          > >
                                          > >But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know
                                          > whether you think
                                          > >there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                          > >not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                          >
                                          > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason
                                          > to discuss
                                          > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                          > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from
                                          > Matthew) or not
                                          > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                          > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the
                                          > past 10 years
                                          > or so.
                                          >
                                          > Bob
                                          >
                                          > >Yours,
                                          > >
                                          > >Jeffrey
                                          > >
                                          > >******
                                          > >Outline
                                          > >
                                          > >Versions of the Prayer (in Matthew, in Luke, in the Didache)
                                          > and their
                                          > >Relationship
                                          > >
                                          > >The Origin of the Prayer (from Jesus? From John the Baptist?)
                                          > >
                                          > >The Unity of the Prayer (the thesis of Goulder)
                                          > >
                                          > >How Original is the Prayer/ The Context of the Prayer (its formal and
                                          > >thematic relationship to Second Temple Jewish Prayers)
                                          > >
                                          > >The Horizon of the Prayer (the question of the Lord's Prayer as an
                                          > >Eschatological Prayer)
                                          > >
                                          > >The Meaning of the Petitions
                                          > >
                                          > >The Function of the Prayer in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                                          > >
                                          > >******
                                          > >--
                                          > >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                          > >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                          > >Chicago, Illinois
                                          > >e-mail jgibson000@...
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >The XTalk Home Page is
                                          > ><http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/>http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
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                                          > ristianity&c=4&s=88&.sig=jdvS-jlduIWYokV3Ul7j1A>Historical
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                                        • Bob Dietel
                                          ... Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. / The Didache: Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                            James Spinti wrote:

                                            >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in his huge tome:
                                            >
                                            >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                            >by Aaron Milavec
                                            >Paulist Press, 2003
                                            >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                            >ISBN: 0809105373
                                            >List Price: $64.95
                                            >
                                            >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.

                                            Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                            second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                            Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                            of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                            --

                                            --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                            --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                            -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                            -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                            -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                          • Jim West
                                            ... Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                              Bob Dietel wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                              > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                              > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                              > of the LP is in pp 134-138.

                                              Flusser too discusses the LP in his book on the Didache--- on pages 293-296.

                                              Jim



                                              --
                                              Jim West, ThD

                                              http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                              http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                                            • James Spinti
                                              By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or later. What does
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                                That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                                later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                                James
                                                ________________________________
                                                James Spinti
                                                Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                                Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                                Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                                jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                                Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                                Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                                Fax: 574-269-6788



                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                                > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Dietel
                                                > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:46 AM
                                                > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > James Spinti wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >I didn't know that Crossan considered the LP in the Didache
                                                > early, but Milavec argues that the whole Didache is early in
                                                > his huge tome:
                                                > >
                                                > >"The Didache: Faith, Hope, and Life of the Earliest
                                                > Christian Communities, 50-70 C.E."
                                                > >by Aaron Milavec
                                                > >Paulist Press, 2003
                                                > >1,000 pages, English, Cloth
                                                > >ISBN: 0809105373
                                                > >List Price: $64.95
                                                > >
                                                > >He deals specifically with the LP in pages 308-350.
                                                >
                                                > Kurt Niederwimmer also argues that the Didache is early
                                                > second-century. [see Niederwimmer et al. 1998. /"The Didache:
                                                > Hermeneia/. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 43.] His discussion
                                                > of the LP is in pp 134-138.
                                                > --
                                                >
                                                > --Bob Dietel, vicar
                                                > --North Cascades Episcopal Missions
                                                > -- St Aidan Episcopal Church, Camano Island, WA
                                                > -- Church of the Transfiguration, Darrington, WA
                                                > -- St Martin & St Francis Episcopal Church, Rockport, WA
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • Jack Kilmon
                                                ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book ... WSas there
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...>
                                                  To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:52 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                                  > At 12:32 PM 5/31/2006, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                                                  >>With apologies for cross posting.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>I am finally beginning work in earnest on my book on the Lord's Prayer
                                                  >>for Paulist Press' _What Are They Saying About_ Series.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>I have drawn up (and include below) a preliminary outline of the topics
                                                  >>that I think are at the center of current discussions of the LP and that
                                                  >>I will need to deal with.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>But I'd be grateful if List Members would let me know whether you think
                                                  >>there are **other** topics that I've overlooked and/or that I should
                                                  >>not neglect given the aim of the book .
                                                  >
                                                  > Isn't the LP in the Didache? IIRC, that might provide reason to discuss
                                                  > * What role it played in the community that used the Didache
                                                  > * Whether the Didache version is derivative (e.g., from Matthew) or not
                                                  > (e.g., Crossan considers it early)
                                                  > There have been a bunch of ~new books on the Didache in the past 10 years
                                                  > or so.
                                                  >
                                                  > Bob

                                                  WSas there not a publication by Oxford University Press about 10 years ago
                                                  of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which included a version of ther LP?

                                                  Jack

                                                  Jack Kilmon
                                                • Tony Buglass
                                                  James Spinti wrote: By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E. That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    James Spinti wrote:
                                                    By early, Milavec means first century, note the subtitle: 50-70 C.E.
                                                    That seems a bit unconventional. Most would date it early 2nd century or
                                                    later. What does Crossan mean by early?

                                                    Crossan discusses the Lord's Prayer in The Historical Jesus p.293, and
                                                    refers to the Didache's version. He thinks it is an "independent rendition"
                                                    of the version known to Matthew. He thinks Luke has used the version in Q,
                                                    and Matthew has replaced it with the version used in his own community. As
                                                    far as the Didache himself is concerned, he includes it in his
                                                    stratification of the Jesus Tradition (p.427f). He places the first part of
                                                    it in his 3rd stratum (80-120) - that is Did.1:1-3a, 2:2-16:2. He thinks
                                                    1:3b-2:1 is a later insertion, independent of the intracanonical gospels.
                                                    He suggests also that the apocalyptic source behind Did.16:3-5 "may have
                                                    been known by Mk.13 or more likely by Mt.24." He places Did.1:3b-2:1 in the
                                                    4th stratum (120-150).

                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Rev Tony Buglass
                                                    Superintendent Minister
                                                    Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                                                  • johnestaton
                                                    ... JES Lisbeth, Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jun 2, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Jeffrey,
                                                      >
                                                      > What is the relationship between the LP and the Kaddish? They sound very
                                                      > similar to me.
                                                      >
                                                      > What is the age of the kaddish?
                                                      >
                                                      > Liz Fried
                                                      >
                                                      > Ann Arbor

                                                      JES
                                                      Lisbeth,
                                                      Sorry I am not Jeffrey, but the link between the LP and the Kaddish is
                                                      widely acknowledged by scholars. I believe the majority think the
                                                      kaddish predates Jesus and that the LP is a variation on the Jewish
                                                      prayer. I would see this link as one of the most powerful arguments
                                                      for its early provenance.

                                                      Best Wishes

                                                      JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)
                                                      Penistone, Sheffield UK
                                                      www.christianreflection.org.uk
                                                    • Mark Preece
                                                      ... And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the problem with this whole discussion is that daddy means different things to
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                                        >It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                                        >"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                                        >God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.

                                                        And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                                        problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                                        to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least not
                                                        that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion. There's
                                                        more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.

                                                        I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                                        not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                                        I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                                        would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                                        guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                                        people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as "daddy"
                                                        to the end of their lives.

                                                        Peace,

                                                        Mark.

                                                        The Rev. Mark Preece
                                                        Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                                        King of Prussia, PA
                                                      • Jack Kilmon
                                                        ... From: Mark Preece To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 06,
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jun 6, 2006
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "Mark Preece" <mwmp@...>
                                                          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Cc: <mwp@...>
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:02 AM
                                                          Subject: Re: [XTalk] LP book


                                                          > At 11:50 AM 6/1/2006, Jeff Peterson wrote:
                                                          >>It may not be more than a footnote, but James Barr's JTS article
                                                          >>"Abba Isn't Daddy" is important in assessing Jesus' attitude towards
                                                          >>God, which Jeremias maintains the prayer expresses.
                                                          >
                                                          > And if you touch on this, please remember to mention that part of the
                                                          > problem with this whole discussion is that "daddy" means different things
                                                          > to different people in English. I haven't read Barr's article, at least
                                                          > not
                                                          > that I remember, but this point often gets lost in this discussion.
                                                          > There's
                                                          > more to "daddy" as a form of address than how intimate it is.
                                                          >
                                                          > I was raised in a culture where calling my father "daddy" was considered
                                                          > not only intimate but infantile -- I'm sure I stopped well before I was 8.
                                                          > I would be uncomfortable praying to God as "daddy" for the same reason I
                                                          > would be uncomfortable putting the rest of the prayer into baby talk. (I
                                                          > guess I could imagine calling God "dad".) On the other hand, I've known
                                                          > people (especially from the south) who referred to their fathers as
                                                          > "daddy"
                                                          > to the end of their lives.
                                                          >
                                                          > Peace,
                                                          >
                                                          > Mark.
                                                          >
                                                          > The Rev. Mark Preece
                                                          > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                                                          > King of Prussia, PA


                                                          I would like to see a precedent in 1st century Judean Aramaic that )b)
                                                          (abba) represents a lesser formality than "father" and not the 1st person
                                                          plural pronomial suffix -a added to ab rather than being the status
                                                          emphaticus which lost its significance by the 1st century (Jeremias, Theol.
                                                          Literaturzeitung 1949, 9, 530). This construction can also be seen in the
                                                          phrase marana tha "OUR master, come." Accordingly I would expect a personal
                                                          or more intimate use to be "aby" (MY father).

                                                          Is there an orthographic tree I am not seeing for the forest here?

                                                          Jack

                                                          Jack Kilmon
                                                          San Marcos, Texas
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