Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Homeowner?

Expand Messages
  • Bob Schacht
    ... Um, not all of us have Greek fonts installed on all of our computers. Can we get this and the texts below in transliteration? Bob ... [Non-text portions of
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      At 09:43 AM 3/2/2006, Jim West wrote:
      >Mark Goodacre has some interesting things to say about this question in
      >a fine, brief exegesis of Mark 2:15 on his blog today (which you should
      >read- by the way)- The text reads
      >
      >και γινεται κατακεισθαι αυτον εν τη
      >οικια αυτου και πολλοι τελωναι και
      >αμαρτωλοι συνανεκειντο τω ιησου και
      >τοις μαθηταις αυτου ησαν γαρ πολλοι
      >και ηκολουθουν αυτω

      Um, not all of us have Greek fonts installed on all of our computers. Can
      we get this and the texts below in transliteration?
      Bob


      >Mark suggests,
      >
      ><<<<<< begin quote
      >
      >This may be an example of the criterion I was recently discussing,
      >accidental information, or material given away in passing, where a piece
      >of data (here: Jesus had a house in Capernaum) is assumed and not
      >narrated. However, there is another way to take the verse. Is Mark
      >intending the reader to take the αὐτοῦ (his) with reference to
      >Levi, who
      >has just been called to follow Jesus? This is the way that most
      >commentators across the centuries have taken it, but I suspect that this
      >is under the influence of Luke, who makes this a great party in Levi's
      >house (Luke 5.29). Incidentally, I can't help wondering how Levi had the
      >resources to finance this big party if he had just left everything (Luke
      >5.28); perhaps it was long last big bash with his old mates before
      >setting off on the road with Jesus; or perhaps by "everything", Luke
      >means his career and his means of earning a living (cf. the same pattern
      >in the Zacchaeus story in Luke 19.1-10, where the tax-collector is
      >called, and Jesus invites himself to tea). But Mark's text encourages
      >the reader to imagine Jesus hosting the party at his own place in
      >Capernaum. After all, he has just asked Levi to follow him (Mark 2.14)
      >and from that point onwards, Levi is absorbed into the anonmymous
      >following disciples group in Mark, not even listed as one of the twelve
      >in Mark 3.13-19. Mark 2.15-18 is a new pericope in Mark, and it is
      >probably Mark himself who has bolted this pericope onto the Call of Levi
      >in 2.13-14, in which case he may well have inherited this tradition
      >about Jesus partying in his house without a link with the Levi tradition.
      ><<<<<<< end quote
      >
      >
      >That's really something worth pondering. If Jesus were a "homeowner"
      >then the oft suggested notion that he was a poor wandering itinerant
      >needs to be re-examined.
      >
      >What Mark doesn't address, though, is the important text in both Matthew
      >(8:20) and Luke (9:58) which read
      >
      >και λεγει αυτω ο ιησους αι αλωπεκες
      >φωλεους εχουσιν και τα πετεινα του
      >ουρανου κατασκηνωσεις ο δε υιος του
      >ανθρωπου ουκ εχει που την κεφαλην κλινη.
      >
      >To be sure, the last thing we want to do is harmonize. Mark knows
      >nothing of a saying of this kind. So why do Matthew and Luke make use of
      >it? And if they knew Mark, and used Mark, why did they ignore or bypass it?
      >
      >Thanks for the provocative posting Mark. It gives us all something to
      >think about.
      >--
      >Jim West
      >
      ><http://web.infoave.net/~jwest>http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical
      >Studies Resources
      >
      >
      >The XTalk Home Page is
      ><http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/>http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
      >
      >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >SPONSORED LINKS
      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=History+of+christianity&w1=History+of+christianity&w2=Historical+jesus&w3=Beyond+belief&w4=Christianity+today&w5=Mere+christianity&c=5&s=117&.sig=0jSvS0DZ2Sb71z459Tb2lQ>History
      >of christianity
      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Historical+jesus&w1=History+of+christianity&w2=Historical+jesus&w3=Beyond+belief&w4=Christianity+today&w5=Mere+christianity&c=5&s=117&.sig=dznpjSKxbm_NhNJd3-cAwQ>Historical
      >jesus
      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Beyond+belief&w1=History+of+christianity&w2=Historical+jesus&w3=Beyond+belief&w4=Christianity+today&w5=Mere+christianity&c=5&s=117&.sig=_V9Hg3GHiNzm5PopBk9czw>Beyond
      >belief
      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christianity+today&w1=History+of+christianity&w2=Historical+jesus&w3=Beyond+belief&w4=Christianity+today&w5=Mere+christianity&c=5&s=117&.sig=n57XYYPHGkaKdi3AcY6Hgg>Christianity
      >today
      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Mere+christianity&w1=History+of+christianity&w2=Historical+jesus&w3=Beyond+belief&w4=Christianity+today&w5=Mere+christianity&c=5&s=117&.sig=Md6xpJevnmHXewPkSaccAg>Mere
      >christianity
      >
      >
      >----------
      >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > * Visit your group
      > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2>crosstalk2" on the web.
      > *
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > *
      > <mailto:crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > *
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >----------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim West
      ... Its unicode. If you have a mailer that reads unicode it should appear quite nicely. If you don t, Mozilla Thunderbird does it brilliantly. ... Best Jim
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Bob Schacht wrote:
        > At 09:43 AM 3/2/2006, Jim West wrote:
        >
        >>Mark Goodacre has some interesting things to say about this question in
        >>a fine, brief exegesis of Mark 2:15 on his blog today (which you should
        >>read- by the way)- The text reads
        >>
        >>και γινεται κατακεισθαι αυτον εν τη
        >>οικια αυτου και πολλοι τελωναι και
        >>αμαρτωλοι συνανεκειντο τω ιησου και
        >>τοις μαθηταις αυτου ησαν γαρ πολλοι
        >>και ηκολουθουν αυτω
        >

        Its unicode. If you have a mailer that reads unicode it should appear
        quite nicely. If you don't, Mozilla Thunderbird does it brilliantly.

        >
        > Um, not all of us have Greek fonts installed on all of our computers. Can
        > we get this and the texts below in transliteration?
        > Bob

        Best

        Jim


        --
        Jim West

        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
      • Mark Goodacre
        Jim, ... It s a good question; I suspect that the Matt. 8.20 // Luke 9.58 logion is one of the reasons that we do not ask questions about where Jesus lived,
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 2, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Jim,

          Thanks for drawing attention to that. One brief comment:

          > What Mark doesn't address, though, is the important text in both Matthew
          > (8:20) and Luke (9:58) which read
          >
          > και λεγει αυτω ο ιησους αι αλωπεκες φωλεους εχουσιν και τα πετεινα του
          > ουρανου κατασκηνωσεις ο δε υιος του ανθρωπου ουκ εχει που την κεφαλην κλινη.
          >
          > To be sure, the last thing we want to do is harmonize. Mark knows
          > nothing of a saying of this kind. So why do Matthew and Luke make use of
          > it? And if they knew Mark, and used Mark, why did they ignore or bypass it?

          It's a good question; I suspect that the Matt. 8.20 // Luke 9.58
          logion is one of the reasons that we do not ask questions about where
          Jesus lived, and whether he had a house, especially given its context
          in Matthew, relatively early in the Gospel, in 8.20, before the
          reference to "the house" in Matt. 9.10. In other words we are seduced
          by the way that Matthew (and Luke for that matter) frame the issue.

          But let us say, for the sake of argument, that Jesus said something
          like the logion in Matt. 8.20 // Luke 9.58. (a) It could reflect a
          later, itinerant stage of his mission. (b) He might be saying
          something about the contrast between the habitual behaviour of the
          animals in contrast to the way that human beings behave. Either way,
          that saying does not negate the idea that Jesus' house in Capernaum is
          mentioned in Mark 2.

          With best wishes
          Mark
          --
          Mark Goodacre Goodacre@...
          Associate Professor
          Duke University
          Department of Religion
          314 Gray Bldg./Box 90964
          Durham, NC 27708-0964 USA
          Phone: 919-660-3503 Fax: 919-660-3530

          http://NTGateway.com/goodacre
        • Karel Hanhart
          Mark, Re. Mark 1,29, 2,15. Isn t it true that Mark likely told his story of Jesus from the perspective of his own ecclesia around (70 or) 72? As I see it he
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 3, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Mark,

            Re. Mark 1,29, 2,15. Isn't it true that Mark likely told his story of Jesus
            from the perspective of his own ecclesia around (70 or) 72? As I see it he
            wants to explain and anchor the existence of their own
            ecclesia-next-to-the-synagogue in their city (Rome? Alexandria?) in a
            perceived original context of Jesus' ministry. In 1,29 the 'house' appears
            to be located almost next door to the synagogue. This need not have been the
            case in ecclesia's in the diaspora, but ideologically they were akin all
            the same. In short, shouldn't we translate oikia in 1,29 and 2,15 against
            its Hebrew/Aramaic background as 'house of learning' - bet ha-midrash?
            Jesus had apparently been confronted in 1,23 by what Mark calls an un-kosher
            spirit, upsetting the community in Capernaum. Aside from the question what
            that exorcism was all about, it resulted in the fame of Jesus and his
            'didache kaine' spreading quickly (1,27). The immediate result was the
            formation of the 'house of Simon, Andrew, James and John' in Capernaum near
            the 'sea'. Their house it seems to me was perceived as the nucleus of all
            later ecclesia's in Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth etc. They
            were situated somewhat like a Methodist meeting hall next to the Anglican.
            Church. Isn't the same translation in order for 2,15? The 'house of
            learning' of Levi of the mysterious 'Halphaios'?

            cordially,

            Karel


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mark Goodacre" <Goodacre@...>
            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
            Cc: <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 9:04 PM
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus the Homeowner?


            > Jim,
            >
            > Thanks for drawing attention to that. One brief comment:
            >
            >> What Mark doesn't address, though, is the important text in both Matthew
            >> (8:20) and Luke (9:58) which read
            >>
            >> και λεγει αυτω ο ιησους αι αλωπεκες φωλεους εχουσιν και τα πετεινα του
            >> ουρανου κατασκηνωσεις ο δε υιος του ανθρωπου ουκ εχει που την κεφαλην
            >> κλινη.
            >>
            >> To be sure, the last thing we want to do is harmonize. Mark knows
            >> nothing of a saying of this kind. So why do Matthew and Luke make use of
            >> it? And if they knew Mark, and used Mark, why did they ignore or bypass
            >> it?
            >
            > It's a good question; I suspect that the Matt. 8.20 // Luke 9.58
            > logion is one of the reasons that we do not ask questions about where
            > Jesus lived, and whether he had a house, especially given its context
            > in Matthew, relatively early in the Gospel, in 8.20, before the
            > reference to "the house" in Matt. 9.10. In other words we are seduced
            > by the way that Matthew (and Luke for that matter) frame the issue.
            >
            > But let us say, for the sake of argument, that Jesus said something
            > like the logion in Matt. 8.20 // Luke 9.58. (a) It could reflect a
            > later, itinerant stage of his mission. (b) He might be saying
            > something about the contrast between the habitual behaviour of the
            > animals in contrast to the way that human beings behave. Either way,
            > that saying does not negate the idea that Jesus' house in Capernaum is
            > mentioned in Mark 2.
            >
            > With best wishes
            > Mark
            > --
            > Mark Goodacre Goodacre@...
            > Associate Professor
            > Duke University
            > Department of Religion
            > 314 Gray Bldg./Box 90964
            > Durham, NC 27708-0964 USA
            > Phone: 919-660-3503 Fax: 919-660-3530
            >
            > http://NTGateway.com/goodacre
            >
            >
            >
            > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
            >
            > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
            > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > List managers may be contacted directly at:
            > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.