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RE: [XTalk] Re: Q and the Historical Jesus

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  • William Arnal
    ... I couldn t agree more, not only with the above statement, but with much of the snipped material as well. (Is Hell freezing over?) I maintain my conviction
    Message 1 of 42 , Feb 15, 2006
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      Brian Trafford wrote all kinds of good stuff, mostly snipped, and:

      >Why would we think that the "Q-author" was necessarily any more, or
      >less, creative, than Matthew?

      I couldn't agree more, not only with the above statement, but with much of
      the snipped material as well. (Is Hell freezing over?) I maintain my
      conviction that at least some of the critiques that have been made of
      certain positions in Q scholarship have likely been made because of those
      conclusions' (or their implications') unattractiveness for the HJ. But is
      there a necessary and logical connection? Not at all. Q scholarship
      shouldn't be constrained by orthodoxies of the HJ field (if there are any
      left) -- but neither should the HJ be constrained by Q scholarship and its
      orthodoxies.

      cheers, and thanks,
      Bill
      ______________________
      William Arnal
      University of Regina
    • Brian Trafford
      ... Well, I don t know about Regina, but it IS mighty cold here in Calgary today. ;^) ... And while I agree (!!!), I also believe that the reverse is likely
      Message 42 of 42 , Feb 16, 2006
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        --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "William Arnal" <warnal@...> wrote:
        >Brian Trafford wrote all kinds of good stuff, mostly snipped, and:
        >
        >>Why would we think that the "Q-author" was necessarily any more, or
        >>less, creative, than Matthew?
        >
        >I couldn't agree more, not only with the above statement, but with
        >much of the snipped material as well. (Is Hell freezing over?)

        Well, I don't know about Regina, but it IS mighty cold here in Calgary
        today. ;^)

        >I maintain my conviction that at least some of the critiques that
        >have been made of certain positions in Q scholarship have likely been
        >made because of those conclusions' (or their implications')
        >unattractiveness for the HJ.

        And while I agree (!!!), I also believe that the reverse is likely
        true, as more than one scholar has used Q to promote a rather
        different theology than is commonly associated with orthodox
        Christianity. Both forms of reasoning are fallacious. The double
        tradition stands as a fact (or at least as close to a fact as one can
        get in this kind of business). Put simply, Matt and Luke shared a
        bunch of stuff not found anywhere else. Now, whether this material
        originated in a shared common document (as the Q advocates believe),
        or in Mattew (or, I suppose, possibly even in Luke), as the Q-sceptics
        maintain, the question of how much of it can presumably be traced back
        to the historical Jesus is a red herring. I was pleased to see that
        in both Kloppenborg's and Goodacre's radically different treatments of
        Q, both set aside the question of the historicity of the double
        tradition, and rightly so.

        >But is there a necessary and logical connection? Not at all. Q
        >scholarship shouldn't be constrained by orthodoxies of the HJ field
        >(if there are any left) -- but neither should the HJ be constrained
        >by Q scholarship and its orthodoxies.

        And as a Q sceptic, I would only add that proponents of the Farrer
        Hypothesis (and any other theories seeking to resolve the Synoptic
        Problem) likewise divorce that effort from the quest for HJ. Though
        Bill and I probably agree on just about nothing else (is that too
        strong?), I think that the HJ debates have not served to advance the
        study (or debunking) of Q. In my view the Synoptic Problem is a
        literary question more than an historical one, and should be treated
        as such. One can only imagine studing the Bard for historical
        sources, and musings about the historicity of the "sayings and deeds
        of Macbeth" coming to dominate the discussion.

        Peace,

        Brian Trafford
        Calgary, AB, Canada
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