Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] Mark's Christology (cont.)

Expand Messages
  • Rikk Watts
    read its not it s .. sorry
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 9, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      read "its" not "it's".. sorry


      On 9/12/05 12:30 PM, "Rikk Watts" <rwatts@...> wrote:

      > Sorry this was so long in coming.
      >
      > As noted earlier, Ps 22 is unparalleled in the psalter for both it's depths
      > of abandonment and equally exalted deliverance ‹ both elements are integral
      > to the psalm and without either it loses much of its force; i.e. it combines
      > at least the forms of lament AND thanksgiving both of which need to be
      > heard. Those who wish to emphasize only one aspect to the exclusion of the
      > other are doing violence to the thematic unity and progression of the
      > material. In other words deliverance is an integral part of the psalm and
      > its essential climax. I would need to see a more substantial case for the
      > possibility of such a one-sided reading in the first century than a simple
      > assertion that only suffering is implied in Jesus' echoing of the first
      > line. That it is an individual lament yet included in Israel's hymnal
      > suggests that it had a role for the community as well.
      >
      > The response of the bystanders supports this reading. Far from being a
      > misunderstanding of Eloi as Elijah (this seems unlikely since although it
      > might appear to work in the English text, it doesn't work in Aramaic), the
      > bystanders' response is to wait and see if Elijah, traditionally understood
      > as Yahweh's agent of deliverance, would indeed appear. In other words, they
      > hear in Jesus' cry an appeal for deliverance and are waiting to see if it
      > occurs.
      >
      > Finally, "a great cry" or "loud voice" is not a particularly common
      > expression. It occurs primarily in Mark when the demons try to ward off
      > Jesus' authority, but additionally in Luke-Acts of crowds and individuals
      > seeking to influence a situation. It occurs once in John of Jesus summoning
      > Lazarus. It is, in other words, the language of power. In Rev it is largely
      > confined to the authority of heavenly messengers, standing between heaven
      > and earth, announcing God's authoritative word over the earth. It seems to
      > me that this is how it is functioning in Mark. There is no question that
      > Jesus is God's agent perhaps even suspended between heaven and earth. Mark
      > intends us to see in Jesus' final great shout at his death a moment of
      > victory and eschatological transformation, hence the torn veil and the
      > centurion's response.
      >
      > Regards
      > Rikk Watts (Cantab)
      > Regent College, Vancouver
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On 17/11/05 11:41 PM, "Joseph Codsi" <joseph5@...> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> Rikk Watts wrote:
      >>
      >> <<I think one needs to be a little careful here. It seems to be
      >> well-recognized that rabbis often quoted part of a saying while invoking the
      >> part left-uncited. Cf. also e.g how for Americans "four score and seven
      >> years ago" invokes far more than just those few words. And there is a
      >> growing body of opinion that NT authors are well aware of the larger
      >> contexts of their scriptural citations. Re the gospel: Mark's Jesus has
      >> explicitly and repeatedly stated that on the third day he would be raised,
      >> in addition to his use of Pss 2, 118, 110 all of which concern God's
      >> vindication and preservation of his Davidic messiah. Given that the
      >> fundamental point of Ps 22 is God's vindication of his Davidic agent even
      >> when all seems utterly lost‹most are agreed that Ps 22 presents the most
      >> dramatic reversal of all the lament Psalms‹it seems to me that everything
      >> points in the direction of vindication. So, I would argue that at least for
      >> Mark vindication has been in view all along, and that being so, you could do
      >> no better than cite parts of Ps 22 if you are after a climactic reversal;
      >> after all if you know your psalms, you certainly know how this Ps, and
      >> particularly this Ps, ends (in several later Jewish traditions it is
      >> associated with Esther, and thus Purim; i.e. the deliverance and vindication
      >> of Israel from almost certain extinction).>>
      >>
      >> This is interesting, but works only for someone who knows that the cross
      >> story has a happy ending: the resurrection. The problem is that Jesus died
      >> before the happy ending, so his cry of dereliction, if it is historical, is
      >> likely to have ignored the happy ending.
      >>
      >> Joseph
      >> ================
      >> Joseph Codsi
      >> P.O. Box 116-2088
      >> Beirut, Lebanon
      >> Telephone (961) 1 423 145
      >> joseph5@...
      >> Université Pour Tous
      >>
      >> "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
      >> available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is free
      >> reading in libraries today."
      >>
      >> Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
      >> December 2004
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
      >>
      >> To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
      >> crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >>
      >> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >>
      >> List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
      >>
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
      >
      > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.