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Re: [XTalk] The Historical Jesus and Q Skepticism

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Hi Stephen, ... I agree that this is pretty much what we see. How then one assesses those deeds as to their historicity is a really big deal. ... I agree
    Message 1 of 105 , Nov 3, 2005
      Hi Stephen,

      Just a few comments:

      > Perhaps we can talk about marginal effects. I might
      > expect a Q-skeptic approach to the HJ to:
      >
      > (a) de-emphasize the sayings of Jesus and look more at
      > his doings;

      I agree that this is pretty much what we see. How then one assesses
      those "deeds" as to their historicity is a really big deal.
      >
      > (b) view Matthew's form of the double tradition somewhat
      > more highly, with the result of:

      I agree again.
      >
      > (1) giving more weight to apocalypticism in Jesus's
      > teachings/actions, and

      Again... based in assessing such speech as having come from HJ rather
      than from the creators.
      >
      > (2) prefer a more self-consciously Jewish take on Jesus.

      My problem here, of course, is that the Hebraic tradition of wisdom...
      and there's plenty of it... is just as "Jewish" as the Royal
      traditions, the Priestly/ Temple Cult traditions, the Classical
      Prophetic traditions and the apocalyptic prophetic traditions. The
      presentation of Jesus as a wisdom figure is not less "self-consciously
      Jewish."

      Besides this this whole conversation on Q Skepticism leaves to the side
      a consideration of redactions in G. Thomas, Paul's access to Wisdom
      theology in his writing, Epistle James and the reality of that the
      foundational constitutional language of "the Two Ways" we find in the
      opening of the Didache is wisdom speech. Those who want to write off
      considering Jesus as a figure that we can primarily understand through
      his aphorisms and parables because they dismiss Q aren't so easily off
      the hook. But even if Jesus is best judged to be understood as an
      apocalyptic prophetic figure or a messianic figure or some combination
      of the two, then Mark, Matthew, Luke, Ep. James, Thomas, the Didache
      present one with a lot of wisdom communication to consider. My notion
      is that whatever one thinks about what best goes to characterize this
      Hebrew/ Jewish fellow named Jesus, then one also ought to pay some keen
      attention to those very Jewish wisdom resources.

      Just another thought:)!

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC
    • Richard H. Anderson
      Liz, I assume you mean the url for the journal which I posted this am Xtalk member, Lisbeth S. Fried s, new book is now available, The Priest and the Great
      Message 105 of 105 , Dec 2, 2005
        Liz,

        I assume you mean the url for the journal which I posted this am

        Xtalk member, Lisbeth S. Fried's, new book is now available, The Priest and
        the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian Empire, together with
        this review in Denver Journal.
        http://www.denverseminary.edu/dj/articles2005/0100/0109.php

        Richard H. Anderson
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