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Re: [XTalk] Essay: Orthodox Death Tradition Misrepresents Jesus

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  • Theodore Weeden
    ... Certainly with respect to the passion predictions that appears to be the case. But with respect to the Last Supper -- where Jesus does impute implicitly,
    Message 1 of 83 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Steve Black wrote on July 28:

      > Theodore Weeden <Tweeden@...> wrote:
      >
      > However Jesus is profiled, whether it be as a sage, apocalypticist,
      > prophet
      > or whatever, I find no historically credible evidence that the historical
      > Jesus interpreted and proclaimed his death as having salvific purpose or
      > meaning, which is the cardinal tenet of the Death Tradition, the
      > post-Easter
      > tradition which has so misrepresented the historical Jesus and distorted
      > his
      > life mission and purpose, in my judgment.

      > Hi Ted, Other than the specific terminology "life traditions/death
      > traditions", isn't this pretty much what has been argued by a dominant
      > number of scholars ever since Wrede?

      Certainly with respect to the passion predictions that appears to be the
      case. But with respect to the Last Supper -- where Jesus does impute
      implicitly, in Pauline version of that tradition (1 Cor. 11:23-25), or
      explicitly, in the Markan version of that tradition (14:22-24), salvific
      meaning for his death -- I think only a very few scholars would argue and
      hold, as I do, that that event is not an authentic "historical Jesus"
      eucharistic tradition..
      >
      > Theodore Weeden <Tweeden@...> wrote:
      >
      > However Jesus is profiled, whether it be as a sage, apocalypticist,
      > prophet
      > or whatever, I find no historically credible evidence that the historical
      > Jesus interpreted and proclaimed his death as having salvific purpose or
      > meaning, which is the cardinal tenet of the Death Tradition, the
      > post-Easter
      > tradition which has so misrepresented the historical Jesus and distorted
      > his
      > life mission and purpose, in my judgment.
      >
      > It isn't clear whether you are talking about "life traditions" or the
      > historical Jesus.

      Steve, have you read my essay? I do not speak there of "life traditions"
      but Life Tradition, and I present a case for the Life Tradition being *more*
      representative of the historical Jesus, his vision, mission and purpose,
      than the Death Tradition is.

      > These two are different beasts and shouldn't be conflated. The life
      > traditions might very well be as much of a misrepresentation of the
      > Historical Jesus as the death traditions. Just because the tradition is
      > about his life doesn't mean that it accurately represents it. <

      See my essay, and help me understand your point with respect to my argument
      there.

      >On the other hand, one could argue that the death tradition has points of
      >contact with an apocalyptic HJesus that although not representative of his
      >acual teaching, nevertheless remains true to various facets of his
      >thinking. <

      One could hold to an apocalyptic Jesus and not hold to the position that
      Jesus ever referred to his death, let alone imputed to it any salvific or
      grand divine design. I would like for you to show me were Jesus does so as
      an apocalypticist or by any other reconstructed profile of Jesus. N. T.
      Wright (_Jesus and the Victory of God_, 574ff.), of course, tries to make a
      case for Jesus seeing his death as a means for bringing in the domain of
      God, but I find Wright reading back into the mind of Jesus the ideology of
      the post-Easter Death Tradition.

      > Hope you are well.

      I am. Thank you for asking.

      Ted
    • Theodore Weeden
      Bob Schacht wrote on September 2, 2005 ... Actually, Bob, I was trained as a form critic by my mentor James M. Robinson, and fully immersed in Bultmann and
      Message 83 of 83 , Sep 15, 2005
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        Bob Schacht wrote on September 2, 2005


        > At 07:50 AM 9/2/2005, Ernest Pennells wrote:
        >
        >>[Ted Weeden]
        >> >I would wonder if you would not, after reading my thesis, agree with me
        >>that Mark is close to being a literary genius.<
        >>
        >>The strongest component of your argument is the parallel motifs in the
        >>Jesus
        >>stories. The explanation you have explored is that Mark worked from
        >>Josephus. There are other explanations. Unfortunately we have little
        >>information on sources used by Mark or Josephus. It is generally accepted
        >>that literacy was limited - particularly among the peasant community from
        >>which HJ drew his first adherents. Storytellers played a major role in
        >>preserving and shaping tradition. The extent to which the Evangelists
        >>drew
        >>directly upon that oral tradition is not known but is surely the earliest
        >>source. Verbal similarities often suggest copying, but we simply don't
        >>know when that process commenced.
        >>
        >>You portray Mark as a literary genius, and your frame of thought is
        >>reflected in this quote: "When Mark sought material to fashion his passion
        >>narrative, he turned to two primary sources which he may well have had at
        >>hand, the Septuagint and, I suspect, Book VI of Josephus' Jewish War."
        >>
        >>That grants no acknowledgement to oral tradition. I don't think I am
        >>being
        >>unfair in plucking this sentence from your essay because, on my reading,
        >>it captures the flavour of your line of thought, focusing upon the
        >>written
        >>word. ...
        >
        > Actually, I had been meaning to add something along these lines to my 8/17
        > post to Ted, and that is basically this: Ted was trained in the arts of
        > literary criticism, and he does a most excellent job within that paradigm.
        > As I understand it, they are basically trained to look for prior *written*
        > sources-- and as we see in the case of Q, reconstruction of written
        > sources
        > is included. In the literary paradigm, as I understand it, operates with
        > the idea that if you can't find a prior written source, then the author of
        > your earliest known source created it. There is usually some wave of the
        > hand to oral tradition, but their scholarly apparatus (again, as I
        > understand it) does not include much on how to deal with it.

        Actually, Bob, I was trained as a form critic by my mentor James M.
        Robinson, and fully immersed in Bultmann and Dibelius, first courses Jim
        taught in seminary at Candler School of Theology in 1955-56 (when I was his
        student), and then as his Ph.D. student at Claremont Graduate School (now
        Claremont Graduate University) from 1960 to 1964, when I received my degree.
        Robinson introduced me to redaction criticism, particularly
        redaction-critical analysis of Mark, via Willi Marxsen's _Der Evangelist
        Markus_, and with that as a foundation I moved in my own direction with Mark
        as I wrote my dissertation, "The Heresy That Necessitated the Gospel of
        Mark" (1964). In the dissertation and more clearly so in my 1971 book,
        _Mark-Traditions in Conflict_, I imaged Mark more as exercising the freedom
        of an author, which without me knowing it, was, if I may say so, was
        something of a precursor to the literary-critical study of Mark, though I
        self-consciously wrote from the vantage point of redaction criticism. In
        1966, I presented my redaction-critical thesis on Mark as a paper, "The
        Heresy That Necessitated the Gospel of Mark," (subsequently published in
        revised form in 1968 by _Zeitschrift fuer die neutestamentliche
        Wissenschaft_) at the SBL annual meeting to the entire New Testament section
        of SBL (in those days the SBL was much, much smaller and all New Testament
        papers were read at the New Testament session). Norman Perrin was present
        in the New Testament session that day (along with Dieter Georgi and others
        whose work I had drawn upon in my dissertaation) and read his own paper on
        the Son of Man to the session following my paper. Following his reading of
        his paper, there was a break, and he rushed down to me and asked me, having
        heard my paper, where he could get my work. At the time, he was writing
        his little volume for Fortress Press, "What Is Redaction?" Perrin
        subsequently wrote me and asked if he could have a copy of my paper in order
        to present my argument as an example of redaction criticism of Mark, and he
        did so on pp. 54-56 of _What is Redaction Criticism. Perrin, thereafter,
        encouraged me to produce a book based upon my dissertation thesis and went
        to bat for me with the editors of Fortress Press who were initially
        reluctant to publish my controversial thesis. But under the urging of
        Perrin, _Mark-Traditions in Conflict_ so the light of day. I am very
        indebted to Norman for his advocacy of my work in the guild.

        So I was trained as a form critic, basically following Bultmann's
        perspective on the oral tradition, and became a redaction critic. It has
        only been in the last 20 years or so that I have become interested in
        literary criticism as a methodology. And I do tend to begin with
        literary-critical methodology now in the investigation of biblical texts.
        With respect to oral tradition, I still tend to be more Bultmannian in my
        view of the evolution of the oral tradition. My reading of Werner Kelber,
        James C. Scott and Jan Vansina has only served to enforce that Bultmannian
        orientation, though, unlike Bultmann, I do think that one can recover
        evidence of the oral tradition prior to the Gospels (including Q and Thomas)
        preserving authentic Jesus tradition. And I have posted as much in XTalk
        contributions.

        Regards,

        Ted
        Theodore J. Weeden, Sr.
        Fairport, NY
        Retired
        Ph.D., Claremont Graduate University
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