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RE: [XTalk] On the Physical death of Jesus

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  • Bob Webb
    Richard, Thanks for the suggestion. But I m really not looking for internet sites. What I m looking for are academic discussions of the primary evidence for
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 4 4:35 AM
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      Richard,

      Thanks for the suggestion.

      But I'm really not looking for internet sites. What I'm looking for are
      academic discussions of the primary evidence for Roman policy and practice
      of capital punishment in general. I'm not looking for studies on Jesus'
      crucifixion specifically, but Roman policy and practice.

      Again, thanks.

      Bob.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard H. Anderson
      > Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2005 4:08 PM
      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [XTalk] On the Physical death of Jesus
      >
      >
      > Bob Webb,
      >
      > On the Physical death of Jesus http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/
      >
      > at the top of the page click on crucifixion site menu and then
      > crucifixion.
      >
      > Richard H. Anderson
      > http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • David Hindley
      ... internet sites. What I m looking for are academic discussions of the primary evidence for Roman policy and practice of capital punishment in general. I m
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 4 9:03 AM
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        Bob Webb says:

        >>Thanks for the suggestion. But I'm really not looking for
        internet sites. What I'm looking for are academic discussions of
        the primary evidence for Roman policy and practice of capital
        punishment in general. I'm not looking for studies on Jesus'
        crucifixion specifically, but Roman policy and practice.<<

        There was a discussion about the subject on this list a few
        years ago. It was prompted by a claim, in Crossan's _Jesus: A
        Revolutionary Biography_, that bodies were left on the crosses
        until the flesh was consumed by vultures (or something to that
        affect). I believe in short time the focus broadened into the
        practice of crucifixion in general. I am certain that secondary
        sources were cited, if only 2nd hand.

        Try searching the archives for the words "revolutionary
        biography" and see what happens. Also, Google the phrase: ||
        "revolutionary biography" crucifixion || as the question will
        certainly show up on the web, possibly with bibliography.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio USA
      • Bob Schacht
        ... Not to pick nits, but I believe that the book under review was Crossan s Birth of Christianity. For Web s purposes, as noted by Ed Tyler, ... Crossan DOES
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 4 11:53 AM
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          At 06:03 AM 7/4/2005, David Hindley wrote:
          >Bob Webb says:
          >
          > >>Thanks for the suggestion. But I'm really not looking for
          >internet sites. What I'm looking for are academic discussions of
          >the primary evidence for Roman policy and practice of capital
          >punishment in general. I'm not looking for studies on Jesus'
          >crucifixion specifically, but Roman policy and practice.<<
          >
          >There was a discussion about the subject on this list a few
          >years ago. It was prompted by a claim, in Crossan's _Jesus: A
          >Revolutionary Biography_, that bodies were left on the crosses
          >until the flesh was consumed by vultures (or something to that
          >affect). I believe in short time the focus broadened into the
          >practice of crucifixion in general. I am certain that secondary
          >sources were cited, if only 2nd hand.

          Not to pick nits, but I believe that the book under review was Crossan's
          Birth of Christianity. For Web's purposes, as noted by Ed Tyler,
          "... Crossan DOES indeed talk about cases in which the Romans
          turned the bodies of execution victims over for burial. He also notes that
          they are not good analogs for the case of Jesus. In THJ and "Who Killed
          Jesus" he makes it quite clear that some victims were buried, and places his
          study of the character of Joseph against that background."
          That makes three books in which Crossan reviews the literature on this issue.

          David Hindley continued:

          >Try searching the archives for the words "revolutionary
          >biography" and see what happens. Also, Google the phrase: ||
          >"revolutionary biography" crucifixion || as the question will
          >certainly show up on the web, possibly with bibliography.

          Good idea-- but for my key words, I chose "crucifixion" and "dogs," and
          turned back the clock to those days of yore when this list was hosted by
          Harpercollins. I turned this up:

          >Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
          >From: Ragu1997@...
          >Subject: gen. scholarly assessment of the burial
          >Sender: owner-crosstalk@...
          >To: crosstalk@...
          >
          >
          >I'm going to quote Craig at length (copyright danger length) here. He is here
          >speaking _informally_. Okay, if you don't like Craig, you can pretend he's
          >lying about everything he says, but if nothing else, posting this will at
          >least give _me_ some fun. At most, someone might just reorient their beliefs
          >about who in this discussion has the "scholarly norm" position, and who has
          >the fringe position.
          >
          >=======
          >I was more than mildly surprised last year, while reading an account of the
          >Jesus Seminar in _Time_ magazine, to learn that according to John Dominic
          >Crossan, the cochairman of the Seminar, after the crucifixion Jesus' corpse
          >was probably laid in a shallow grave, barely covered with dirt, and
          >subsequently eaten by wild dogs; the story of Jesus' entombment and
          >resurrection was the result of "wishful thinking."
          >
          >Having carried out fairly extensive research into the historicity of Jesus'
          >resurrection, I was well aware that the wide majority of New Testament critics
          >affirm the historicity of the Gospels' assertion that Jesus' corpse was
          >interred in the tomb of a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea.
          >Thus, it puzzled me why a prominent scholar like Crossan would set his face
          >against the consensus of scholarship on this question. What hitherto
          >undetected or unappreciated evidence had he discovered, I wondered, that had
          >escaped the notice of critical scholarship and made it probable that Jesus'
          >body was dispatched in the way he alleged, and how did he nullify the evidence
          >that has led most critics to regard the Gospel accounts of Jesus' entombment
          >as fundamentally historically reliable?
          >
          >You can imagine my sense of disappointment when, consulting Crossan's works, I
          >found that he had no particular evidence, much less compelling evidence, for
          >his allegation; rather, it was just his hunch as to what happened to the body
          >of Jesus. Since he does not accept the historicity of the empty tomb (not to
          >speak of the resurrection), Crossan merely surmises that Jesus' corpse was
          >laid in the graveyard reserved for executed criminals. Moreover, he does
          >engage the evidence that prompts most scholars to accept the historicity of
          >Jesus' entombment; instead, he seeks to undercut the credibility of the Gospel
          >accounts of Jesus' burial and resurrection by means of a general analysis of
          >the Gospel texts and traditions that is so bizarre and contrived that the
          >overwheling majority of New Testament critics find it wholly implausible. It
          >is sobering to think that it is this sort of idiosyncratic speculation that
          >thousands of lay readers of magazines like _Time_ have come to believe
          >represents the best of contemporary New Testament scholarship concerning the
          >historical Jesus. (_Jesus Under Fire_, p. 142)
          >==
          >
          >I can't write up all the footnotes for those informal comments (nearly 2 pages
          >of footnotes on the single-page intro to a chapter, most of it on Crossan's
          >scholarly oddities/inconsistencies). The footnotes alone are perhaps worth the
          >cost of the book, but I'll list one thing that is really interesting which
          >Craig pointed out in a footnote to this section.
          >
          >Crossan firmly believes that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate because
          >the crucifixion is attested by Josephus (c. 93-94) and Tacitus (110/120), two
          >"early and independent witnesses" (_Historical Jesus_, 372). Craig remarks:
          >====
          >"This is quite amazing. We have on the one hand a New Testament chock full of
          >early and independent references to Jesus' crucifixion, including Paul's
          >citation of the early tradition in 1 Cor 15:3, and on the other hand a
          >doctored reference a half century later in Josephus and a reference no doubt
          >depedent on Christian tradition by Tacitus; yet Crossan accepts the
          >crucifixion on the basis of the latter! This evinces a prejudice against the
          >New Testament documents that can only be described as historically
          >irresponsible." (ibid., 168)
          >====
          >
          >Despite the response Craig gives to Crossan's works in this book and the
          >thorough whipping Craig gave the unfamiliar Crossan in their subsequent debate
          >(sorry if I spoiled it), I guess some will still be inclined to see Crossan as
          >a super-scientific scholar and Craig as a "sophist" or an unread charlatan, a
          >sermon-writing clown pretending to be a scholar.
          >
          >I, on the other hand, see this as totally unjustified, and I hope you will
          >stop pathetically impugning or ridiculing me for citing Craig's works. Yes, I
          >think he has done some good research on the related topics, but I hope you
          >won't caricature me by saying he's my "idol" or what have you.
          >
          >just a thought; I hope no one's affronted...
          >Ryan
          >http://members.xoom.com/Ragu1997/index.htm


          Where is Ryan these days, anyway?
          Bob


          Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
          Northern Arizona University
          Flagstaff, AZ

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Hindley
          Bob, ... Crossan s Birth of Christianity.
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 4 3:30 PM
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            Bob,

            >>Not to pick nits, but I believe that the book under review was
            Crossan's Birth of Christianity.<<

            Actually I did mean _Jesus A Revolutionary Biography_. Someone
            had brought up Crossan's assertion (in said book) that Jesus'
            dead body probably served as food for dogs (p. 154), and I
            thought a short side thread followed this up.

            >>For Web's purposes, as noted by Ed Tyler, "... Crossan DOES
            indeed talk about cases in which the Romans turned the bodies of
            execution victims over for burial. He also notes that they are
            not good analogs for the case of Jesus. In THJ and "Who Killed
            Jesus" he makes it quite clear that some victims were buried,
            and places his study of the character of Joseph against that
            background." That makes three books in which Crossan reviews the
            literature on this issue.<<

            It is possible that Crossan dealt with the matter in _The
            Historical Jesus_ (which I don't own a copy of). In
            _Revolutionary Biography_ Crossan seems to have based his
            opinion about what happened to Jesus' dead body on Martin
            Hengel's _Crucifixion in the Ancient World and the Folly of the
            Message of the Cross_ (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1977). He
            described Hengel's book as "a catalogue of the writings of
            Greco-Roman authors on the subject of crucifixion."

            Respectfully,

            Dave Hindley
            Cleveland, Ohio USA
          • John Sabatino
            Of interest to readers might be Hengel s essay Das Begrabnis Jesu bei Paulus and die leibliche Auferstehung aus dem Grabe (pp. 119-83) in Friedrich Avemarie
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 4 4:21 PM
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              Of interest to readers might be Hengel's essay "Das Begrabnis Jesu bei
              Paulus and die leibliche Auferstehung aus dem Grabe" (pp. 119-83) in
              Friedrich Avemarie and Hermann Lichtenberger (eds.), _Auferstehung -
              Resurrection. The Fourth Durham-Tubingen Research Symposium: Resurrection,
              Transfiguration and Exaltation in Old Testament, Ancient Judaism, and Early
              Christianity_ (Tubingen, September, 1999) (WUNT 135; Tubingen: Mohr
              [Siebeck], 2001).

              In it, Hengel argues against Crossan's idea that Jesus was left unburied or
              tossed into a common graveyard for criminals. I have not read this yet, but
              according to Perkins review in CBQ, it is a very thorough treatment of the
              burial accounts.

              There's also a recent JBL article by Jodi Magness entitled "Ossuaries and
              the Burials of Jesus and James" Journal of Biblical Literature; Spring2005,
              Vol. 124 Issue 1, p121, 34p.

              Magness also argues against Crossan's views on the burial or lack thereof -
              particularly his supposition that it is surprising that we would find only
              the one properly buried victim of crucifixion, were this the norm.

              John Sabatino
              Austin, TX


              -----Original Message-----
              From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of David Hindley
              Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 4:31 PM
              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [XTalk] On the Physical death of Jesus [long]

              Bob,

              >>Not to pick nits, but I believe that the book under review was
              Crossan's Birth of Christianity.<<

              Actually I did mean _Jesus A Revolutionary Biography_. Someone
              had brought up Crossan's assertion (in said book) that Jesus'
              dead body probably served as food for dogs (p. 154), and I
              thought a short side thread followed this up.

              >>For Web's purposes, as noted by Ed Tyler, "... Crossan DOES
              indeed talk about cases in which the Romans turned the bodies of
              execution victims over for burial. He also notes that they are
              not good analogs for the case of Jesus. In THJ and "Who Killed
              Jesus" he makes it quite clear that some victims were buried,
              and places his study of the character of Joseph against that
              background." That makes three books in which Crossan reviews the
              literature on this issue.<<

              It is possible that Crossan dealt with the matter in _The
              Historical Jesus_ (which I don't own a copy of). In
              _Revolutionary Biography_ Crossan seems to have based his
              opinion about what happened to Jesus' dead body on Martin
              Hengel's _Crucifixion in the Ancient World and the Folly of the
              Message of the Cross_ (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1977). He
              described Hengel's book as "a catalogue of the writings of
              Greco-Roman authors on the subject of crucifixion."

              Respectfully,

              Dave Hindley
              Cleveland, Ohio USA






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