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RE: [XTalk] Sabbath and Circumcision

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  • John C. Poirier
    Thanks you, Ernie, for this interesting message. ... but not for the nascent church; But perhaps sabbath observance is included in Paul s reference to
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
      Thanks you, Ernie, for this interesting message.

      Ernest Pennells wrote:

      > The odd thing is that Sabbath is portrayed as a major issue for Jesus,
      but not for the nascent church;

      But perhaps sabbath observance is included in Paul's reference to observing
      "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:10).

      > . . . This appears to run counter to the argument that Gospel tradition
      > reflects concerns of the church at the time the Gospels were written.

      I think that a sabbath controversy within the church shows through in John's
      gospel: in the healing of the lame man at the Pool of Bethesda (in chap. 5)
      and the man born blind (in chap. 9), the sabbath is an issue, and if you
      look closely, you'll see that it isn't that Jesus healed on the sabbath (as
      is the issue in the synoptics) but rather that he commanded those whom he
      healed to break the sabbath, either by carrying a pallet or washing one's
      eyes in a particular pool (whether washing the eyes was against sabbath
      regulations is admittedly a clouded issue, as rabbinic texts show that there
      was a wide range of opinions about how much bathing was permitted on the
      sabbath). If we consider this in the light of J. L. Martyn's stereoscopic
      hermeneutic (as I believe we should), it would seem to imply that the
      Johannine church was fighting against a group insisting on sabbath
      observance.


      John C. Poirier
      Middletown, Ohio
    • Liz Williams
      ... Yes, and also Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike , in Rom 14:5. I also wonder whether there is not some
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
        "John C. Poirier" <poirier@...> wrote:

        > But perhaps sabbath observance is included in Paul's
        > reference to
        > observing
        > "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:10).

        Yes, and also "Some judge one day to be better than another,
        while others judge all days to be alike", in Rom 14:5. I
        also wonder whether there is not some trace of a dispute
        about sabbath observance in Heb 4:9 (where it is clearly
        not the main point of the passage, however.)

        Liz Williams
        Open University

        --
        The lullaby is the spell whereby the mother attempts to
        transform herself back from an ogre to a saint. - James
        Fenton
      • Ian E. Rock
        Ernest: Would you not have to add a third to these - the issue of diet, which is common to the Gospels, Acts and the Pauline corpus? Ian ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
          Ernest:
          Would you not have to add a third to these - the issue
          of diet, which is common to the Gospels, Acts and the
          Pauline corpus?
          Ian

          --- Ernest Pennells <pennells@...> wrote:
          >
          > The Gospels provide ample evidence that Sabbath was
          > a high profile issue
          > between Jesus and his antagonists. It stands
          > alongside sharing table with
          > tax collectors and sinners as a major point of
          > conflict. Any polemic that
          > might attach to Jesus resting in the tomb throughout
          > a Sabbath would appear
          > to soften the issue by a demonstration of
          > compliance. Apart from an oblique
          > reference to observing Sabbaths, there is no
          > indication of this being an
          > issue in the NT church. That is odd because, as
          > Gentiles joined the ranks,
          > this would seem to offer no less a flash-point than
          > the highly contentious
          > issue of circumcision.
          >
          > That circumcision is not an issue in the Gospels is
          > hardly surprising. The
          > only references relate to the birth of JBap and
          > Jesus, and an argument that
          > circumcision is one form of work accepted on the
          > Sabbath. Circumcision is
          > clearly an interface issue between Jew and Gentile
          > converts. Sabbath also
          > has that potential, but is presented as an internal
          > Jewish issue on levels
          > of observance. Jesus did not assault Sabbath with
          > anything like the venom
          > attributed to Paul regarding circumcision. His
          > recorded habit of attending
          > synagogue on the Sabbath is another token of
          > compliance.
          >
          > From this textual evidence, it might be argued that
          > the NT portrays an
          > assault upon two pillars of Judaism: Sabbath and
          > circumcision. This
          > certainly has a legitimate ring when Judaism is
          > viewed from a Gentile
          > perspective, where Sabbath and circumcision stand
          > out as distinctive
          > features that clash with Gentile praxis. The odd
          > thing is that Sabbath is
          > portrayed as a major issue for Jesus, but not for
          > the nascent church; but
          > circumcision is portrayed as a major issue for the
          > church, but not for
          > Jesus. This appears to run counter to the argument
          > that Gospel tradition
          > reflects concerns of the church at the time the
          > Gospels were written.
          >
          > I am puzzled by the dichotomy between the prominence
          > of Sabbath in the
          > Gospels, and its conspicuous absence later. Any
          > suggestions?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Ernie Pennells
          > Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
          > Level 12 Apartment 4
          > 28 Corniche el Nil
          > Cairo, Egypt
          > Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
          > http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/robots/03-1982.html
          >
          >



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        • Ernest Pennells
          [John Poirier] ... days, and months, and times, and years (Gal 4:10).
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
            [John Poirier]
            >But perhaps sabbath observance is included in Paul's reference to observing
            "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:10).<

            [Liz Williams]
            >Yes, and also "Some judge one day to be better than another, while others
            judge all days to be alike", in Rom 14:5.<

            Agreed, but I am not aware of any record of discord comparable with the
            sabbath and circumcision controversies.

            [John Poirier]
            >it isn't that Jesus healed on the sabbath ... but rather that he commanded
            those whom he healed to break the sabbath,... If we consider this in the
            light of J. L. Martyn's stereoscopic hermeneutic (as I believe we should),
            it would seem to imply that the Johannine church was fighting against a
            group insisting on sabbath observance.<

            Stereoscopic hermeneutic sounds like fun, John - does it come with coloured
            glasses? :-). Seriously, though, given the strength of the discord around
            sabbath and circumcision, I am amazed that we don't have direct evidence of
            disputes around the sabbath issue [to my knowledge: have I missed
            something?].

            [Ian Rock]
            >Would you not have to add a third to these - the issue of diet, which is
            common to the Gospels, Acts and the Pauline corpus?<

            Peter's vision; the domical saying about not being defiled by what enters
            the body; and, possibly, table fellowship issues certainly show there was
            disagreement on this front. But, again, somewhat low-key compared with
            S&C.

            Let's face it: sabbath was a rather more visible issue than circumcision -
            how did it not generate a rift? The stance attributed to Jesus in the
            canonical Gospels might easily have become like fuel to the fire for such a
            dispute, although it is hard to believe that the tradition could be taken
            as abrogating the sabbath, in line with the dominical saying that was said
            to declare all food clean.

            Regards,

            Ernie Pennells
            Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
            Level 12 Apartment 4
            28 Corniche el Nil
            Cairo, Egypt
            Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
            http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/robots/03-1982.html
          • Stephen C. Carlson
            ... I agree with you about the chapter 5 healing, but for the healing in chapter 9, I thought the problem escalted to Jesus s alleged violation of the sabbath,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
              At 08:08 AM 4/8/2005 -0400, John C. Poirier wrote:
              >I think that a sabbath controversy within the church shows through in John's
              >gospel: in the healing of the lame man at the Pool of Bethesda (in chap. 5)
              >and the man born blind (in chap. 9), the sabbath is an issue, and if you
              >look closely, you'll see that it isn't that Jesus healed on the sabbath (as
              >is the issue in the synoptics) but rather that he commanded those whom he
              >healed to break the sabbath, either by carrying a pallet or washing one's
              >eyes in a particular pool (whether washing the eyes was against sabbath
              >regulations is admittedly a clouded issue, as rabbinic texts show that there
              >was a wide range of opinions about how much bathing was permitted on the
              >sabbath).

              I agree with you about the chapter 5 healing, but for the healing
              in chapter 9, I thought the problem escalted to Jesus's alleged
              violation of the sabbath, i.e., that Jesus himself made mud on
              the Sabbath. It's repeated over and over again:

              9: 6 "he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread
              the mud on the man's eyes"
              9:11 "The man called Jesus made mude, spread it on my eyes, and said..."
              9:14 Now it was a sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his
              eyes.
              9:15 "He put mud on my eyes. Then I washed, and now I see."

              Do the rabbinic texts discuss the propriety of making mud on the sabbath?

              (Random thought: Was making mud part of the job that a TEKTWN did?)

              >If we consider this in the light of J. L. Martyn's stereoscopic
              >hermeneutic (as I believe we should), it would seem to imply that the
              >Johannine church was fighting against a group insisting on sabbath
              >observance.

              I'd like to hear more about this hermeneutic. I assume it
              is more than just mirror reading or something.

              Stephen Carlson
              --
              Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
              Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
              "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
            • John C. Poirier
              ... Well, a few people refer to the prohibition of kneading in this connection (in m. Shab. 7.2), and I ve seen a discussion on which types of anointing were
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
                Stephen C. Carlson wrote:

                > Do the rabbinic texts discuss the propriety of making mud on the sabbath?

                Well, a few people refer to the prohibition of kneading in this connection
                (in m. Shab. 7.2), and I've seen a discussion on which types of anointing
                were allowed, but I can't answer more specifically at the moment, esp. as I
                don't have access to my books at the moment.

                > I'd like to hear more about this hermeneutic. I assume it is more than
                > just mirror reading or something.

                I'm afraid I might have used the wrong word. I remember Martyn calling his
                double-vision hermeneutic (in which one sees both the events of Jesus' day
                and John's day in a single account) stereo- something or other, but more
                likely the word he used was "stereoptic" rather than "stereoscopic". The
                idea of blending two different pictures into one is somewhat the same
                whichever word it was, but stereoptic is better.

                At any rate, it simply refers to the idea of correlating narrative details
                with events in the writer's day rather than with events in Jesus' day.
                Martyn didn't come up with this hermeneutic (Bultmann had already used it
                rather well), but he perfected it.


                John C. Poirier
                Middletown, Ohio
              • Bob Schacht
                ... Good thought! Although we normally think of a TEKTWN as a woodworker, construction in that time and place also routinely involved making mudbricks, and it
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 8, 2005
                  At 09:04 AM 4/8/2005, Stephen C. Carlson wrote:

                  >...I agree with you about the chapter 5 healing, but for the healing
                  >in chapter 9, I thought the problem escalted to Jesus's alleged
                  >violation of the sabbath, i.e., that Jesus himself made mud on
                  >the Sabbath. It's repeated over and over again:
                  >
                  >9: 6 "he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread
                  > the mud on the man's eyes"
                  >9:11 "The man called Jesus made mude, spread it on my eyes, and said..."
                  >9:14 Now it was a sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his
                  > eyes.
                  >9:15 "He put mud on my eyes. Then I washed, and now I see."
                  >
                  >Do the rabbinic texts discuss the propriety of making mud on the sabbath?
                  >
                  >(Random thought: Was making mud part of the job that a TEKTWN did?)

                  Good thought! Although we normally think of a TEKTWN as a woodworker,
                  construction in that time and place also routinely involved making
                  mudbricks, and it is not unreasonable to suppose that making mudbricks was
                  part of a TEKTWN's inventory of job skills. As I know from my own work in
                  the Middle East, the cheapest and most widely used construction material
                  was sun-dried mudbrick, and this has been the case in the Middle East for
                  about the last 6000 years or so. A basic starter-home in a village such as
                  Nazareth would probably have been made with mudbricks. Wood would have been
                  used primarily for trim, e.g. doors and windows. In fact, it may be that
                  the TEKTWN had to be involved with making at least some of the mudbricks,
                  e.g. to set the hinges for a door. (Door hinges would be a whole discussion
                  of its own, since doors were hung rather differently then, but they still
                  required a stable fixed anchor on which to mount, or from which to hang, a
                  movable piece.)

                  Bob in HI



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Karel Hanhart
                  Ernest, Before one enters the discussion on the strict or lenient observance of the Sabbath itself, one must explain the peculiar use of a) the use of sabbaton
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 9, 2005
                    Ernest,

                    Before one enters the discussion on the strict or lenient observance of the
                    Sabbath itself, one must explain the peculiar use of
                    a) the use of sabbaton in the singular and the plural in Mark; as I see it
                    sabbaton in the plural stands for the seven weeks of Pentecost.
                    b) the important characterization of Mark by Papias 'ou mentoi taxei': Mark
                    did not write in the (liturgical!) order
                    c) the peculiar name 'en miai ton sabbaton' of the Sunday of the women's
                    vision in Mark's ending
                    d) the remarkable connection between 'healings' and 'sabbaton' (singular and
                    plural) in the canonical Gospels.
                    e) why in 'story time' Jesus was buried on the first day of Pentecost
                    according to the Pharisaic calendar (instituted as I calculate under Herod
                    Agrippa, 40-44 CE) and why the angel's message on Jesus'resurrection was
                    heard 'on day ONE OF THE SABBATHS' , meaning on the first day of the
                    Pentecostal harvest.

                    I am eager to know your reactions to my explanation of these points given
                    in the archive in message 18664 on March 24, 2005 (en tois sabbasin) and
                    message 18655 (ou mentoi taxei) also on March 24, 2005.

                    cordially,

                    Karel


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Ernest Pennells" <pennells@...>
                    To: "XTalk" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:28 PM
                    Subject: [XTalk] Sabbath and Circumcision


                    >
                    >
                    > The Gospels provide ample evidence that Sabbath was a high profile issue
                    > between Jesus and his antagonists. It stands alongside sharing table with
                    > tax collectors and sinners as a major point of conflict. Any polemic that
                    > might attach to Jesus resting in the tomb throughout a Sabbath would
                    > appear
                    > to soften the issue by a demonstration of compliance. Apart from an
                    > oblique
                    > reference to observing Sabbaths, there is no indication of this being an
                    > issue in the NT church. That is odd because, as Gentiles joined the
                    > ranks,
                    > this would seem to offer no less a flash-point than the highly contentious
                    > issue of circumcision.
                    >
                    > That circumcision is not an issue in the Gospels is hardly surprising.
                    > The
                    > only references relate to the birth of JBap and Jesus, and an argument
                    > that
                    > circumcision is one form of work accepted on the Sabbath. Circumcision is
                    > clearly an interface issue between Jew and Gentile converts. Sabbath also
                    > has that potential, but is presented as an internal Jewish issue on
                    > levels
                    > of observance. Jesus did not assault Sabbath with anything like the venom
                    > attributed to Paul regarding circumcision. His recorded habit of
                    > attending
                    > synagogue on the Sabbath is another token of compliance.
                    >
                    > From this textual evidence, it might be argued that the NT portrays an
                    > assault upon two pillars of Judaism: Sabbath and circumcision. This
                    > certainly has a legitimate ring when Judaism is viewed from a Gentile
                    > perspective, where Sabbath and circumcision stand out as distinctive
                    > features that clash with Gentile praxis. The odd thing is that Sabbath is
                    > portrayed as a major issue for Jesus, but not for the nascent church;
                    > but
                    > circumcision is portrayed as a major issue for the church, but not for
                    > Jesus. This appears to run counter to the argument that Gospel tradition
                    > reflects concerns of the church at the time the Gospels were written.
                    >
                    > I am puzzled by the dichotomy between the prominence of Sabbath in the
                    > Gospels, and its conspicuous absence later. Any suggestions?
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Ernie Pennells
                    > Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
                    > Level 12 Apartment 4
                    > 28 Corniche el Nil
                    > Cairo, Egypt
                    > Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
                    > http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/robots/03-1982.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                    >
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                  • Ernest Pennells
                    [Karel Hanhart] ... I regret that I have not kept pace with the intricacies of your arguments along this theme, Karel. With my study resources still stranded
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 10, 2005
                      [Karel Hanhart]
                      >I am eager to know your reactions to my explanation of these points <

                      I regret that I have not kept pace with the intricacies of your arguments
                      along this theme, Karel. With my study resources still stranded in
                      Vancouver I am ill equipped to tackle breaching that gap. Meanwhile I am
                      comfortably paddling in less controversial waters where the events of the
                      Passion are tied to Passover rather than Pentecost, and the record of
                      Jesus' frequent arguments about Sabbath relate to the seventh day of the
                      week. I must leave the debate on the questions you raise in better equipped
                      hands until I am granted an opportunity to catch up on this subject matter.

                      Does your reading of the text yield particular insights regarding the
                      disparity between the prominence of Sabbath conflict in the Gospels, and
                      its relative invisibility in the rest of the NT?

                      Regards,

                      Ernie Pennells
                      Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
                      Level 12 Apartment 4
                      28 Corniche el Nil
                      Cairo, Egypt
                      Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
                      http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/robots/03-1982.html
                    • Karel Hanhart
                      [Ernest] Members of an age old Christian culture and worship, are so used to think of Passover in terms of the triduum: Friday-Saturday- Easter Sunday that
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 10, 2005
                        [Ernest]

                        Members of an age old Christian culture and worship, are so used to think of
                        Passover in terms of the triduum: Friday-Saturday- Easter Sunday that
                        thinking in terms of Pesach in the night of nisan 14/15 (full moon) and
                        Shabuoth (first of the 50 harvest days) is highly confusing to them.
                        Students are constantly confused - especially in Holland since the Dutch
                        word for the Jewish Pesach and for the Christian Easter is the very same
                        word: Pasen. Nevertheless, it is self evident that in pre-70 times
                        Christian Judeans followed the Jewish calendar and farmers brought their
                        "firstlings" to the Temple on what we call Easter Day, that is the Sunday
                        after Pesach (cf. Lev 23,11.15), until the calendar was changed.

                        You write about wanting to "comfortably paddle in less controversial waters
                        where the events of the Passion are tied to Passover rather than Pentecost".

                        I have been writing about the Passion and the (Jewish) Passover in the time
                        of Jesus. I simply point out that Jesus died on Friday, which fell on the
                        day of Passover that year, and that the story of the Supper on Thursday
                        night, was a Christian interpretation of the meaning of Pesach.

                        I truly wonder why you and others consider the indisputable historical
                        difference as CONTROVERSIAL between the PHARISAIC calendar (the first day of
                        the harvest is nisan 16 - the day of the burial story -) and the ANCIENT
                        PRIESTLY calendar (the first day should be the Sunday after Pesach - the day
                        of the women's vision)? The latter was followed by Christian Judeans,
                        Samaritans and Qumranites.

                        I wonder is it controversial because I insist on considering the narrative
                        as a first century (Christian) JEWISH document? Or is it because of my
                        denial of the historicity of the empty tomb because Mark's ending is a
                        midrash on LXX Isa 22,16; 33,126 and Gen 29, 2,3,5? One strange aspect of
                        the so-called controversy is, that the conclusions I derived from the above
                        facts have not been seriously reviewed up till now; they are simply
                        dismissed. My perplexity is genuine, I assure you.
                        As to your last question (below). The disputes in chapters 1, 2 and 3 of
                        Mark should not be called Sabbath controversies, as is often done. They take
                        place within the seven weeks of the harvest (N.B. ch 4) and they describe
                        the astounding and ever widening effect of Jesus' ministry in Galilee and
                        the ever increasing opposition by Jesus' opponents (with a fast forward
                        glance at the later post crucifixion opposition of his followers).
                        Close reading shows that only two Sabbaths (1,21; 3,1) are involved; 'tois
                        sabbasin' in the plural means, I think, during Shabuoth; 1,21 and 4,1 are
                        the last two of the seven Sabbaths of Shabuoth (Pentecost).
                        The Gospel begins and ends on the "first" of the fifty days of Pentecost, a
                        Sunday.

                        cordially

                        Karel




                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Ernest Pennells" <pennells@...>
                        To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:10 AM
                        Subject: RE: [XTalk] Sabbath and Circumcision


                        >
                        > [Karel Hanhart]
                        >>I am eager to know your reactions to my explanation of these points <
                        >
                        > I regret that I have not kept pace with the intricacies of your arguments
                        > along this theme, Karel. With my study resources still stranded in
                        > Vancouver I am ill equipped to tackle breaching that gap. Meanwhile I am
                        > comfortably paddling in less controversial waters where the events of the
                        > Passion are tied to Passover rather than Pentecost, and the record of
                        > Jesus' frequent arguments about Sabbath relate to the seventh day of the
                        > week. I must leave the debate on the questions you raise in better
                        > equipped
                        > hands until I am granted an opportunity to catch up on this subject
                        > matter.
                        >
                        > Does your reading of the text yield particular insights regarding the
                        > disparity between the prominence of Sabbath conflict in the Gospels, and
                        > its relative invisibility in the rest of the NT?
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Ernie Pennells
                        > Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
                        > Level 12 Apartment 4
                        > 28 Corniche el Nil
                        > Cairo, Egypt
                        > Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
                        > http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/robots/03-1982.html
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                        >
                        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                        > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                        > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                          ... A very curious claim.  It seems to me to overlook several facts. In the first place, the plural  TA SABBATA was not originally a plural; it is simply
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 10, 2005
                           

                          Karel Hanhart wrote:

                          >  'tois
                          > sabbasin' in the plural means, I think, during Shabuoth;.

                          A very curious claim.  It seems to me to overlook several facts.

                          In the first place, the plural  TA SABBATA was not originally a plural; it is
                          simply the Heb. sáabbaµt or ãabbat --  the "A" is from the outset a purely vocal
                          addition to reproduce the Heb. -t in Gk. (see ” E. Schwyzer, “Altes u. Neues zu
                          [hbr.-]griech. sabbata [griech.-]lat. sabbata usw.,” Zschr. f. vergleichende
                          Sprachforschung, 62 (1935), 10). In practical usage, however, TA SABBATA was then
                          assimilated to the comprehensive plur. of Gk. festivals (see Schwyzer, Griech.
                          Grammatik, II, 43 with n. 5).

                          Secondly,  when we see the noun used in Greek Biblical and related literature in
                          the dative plural -- in either in the form TOIS SABBASIN or in the form TOIS
                          SABBATOIS (the first in 1 Macc. 2:38; Jos.Ant., 13, 337; 16, 163; Vit., 279, the
                          second in Nu. 28:10 LXX; 2 Ch. 2:3 etc.  and also in Jos.Ant., 3, 294; 11, 346;
                          12, 4 and 276 f.; 13, 252; Bell., 1, 146,  it is never used to mean to mean
                          "during Shabuoth"  (see further Str-BilI, 610f.; Pr.-Bauer5, s.v.).

                          Third, the use of the plural of the noun to mean "the Sabbath" is common in Greek
                          Biblical and related literature. See e.g.,  Ex. 20:10;  Jos.Ant., 3, 143. Ant., 1,
                          33; 3, 237; 11, 77.  See too Ex. 20:8 LXX; 35:3: Dt. 5:12; Jer. 17ò21f.; Jos.Ant.,
                          7, 305; 12, 259 and 274; 13, 12; 14, 226  where we find hH hHMERA TWN SABBATWN
                          used for "the Sabbath".

                          So like your claim about what Papias is saying with his OU MENTOI TAXEI (which
                          patently ignores the context in which these words appaer and their referent),  I
                          find this claim about the meaning of TOIS SABBASINanother example of your special
                          pleading.

                          Jeffrey
                          --

                          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                          Chicago, IL 60626

                          jgibson000@...
                           
                        • Karel Hanhart
                          Jeffrey, May I refer you to pp 269 - 298 in particular to note 35 of my The Open Tomb on the critique of Schwyzer s article? In fundamental scholarly
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 12, 2005
                            Jeffrey,


                            May I refer you to pp 269 - 298 in particular to note 35 of my The Open Tomb
                            on the critique of Schwyzer's article? In fundamental scholarly discussion
                            it is customary to at least know the argumentation and conclusions of the
                            partner before critiquing his/her position. Forgive me for being slightly
                            irritated. Are we simply rehashing tired old arguments in this list, or are
                            we informing each other of new research and discuss it?
                            It is easy to check Bauer-Gingrich, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament
                            Literature and then triumphantly cite the article mentioned there [in casu
                            Schwyzer's article in your reply below] in defence of the questionable
                            position taken by that dictionary as the authority on which one bases a
                            reply. Most of us have Bauer's Dictionary on their shelf and it is an easy
                            matter just to cite it. I assume you actually have read that article, have
                            you? But what do you say about my critique of that article?

                            cordially,

                            Karel

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:54 AM
                            Subject: Re: [XTalk] Sabbath and Circumcision


                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Karel Hanhart wrote:
                            >
                            >> 'tois
                            >> sabbasin' in the plural means, I think, during Shabuoth;.
                            >
                            > A very curious claim. It seems to me to overlook several facts.
                            >
                            > In the first place, the plural TA SABBATA was not originally a plural; it
                            > is
                            > simply the Heb. sáabbaµt or ãabbat -- the "A" is from the outset a purely
                            > vocal
                            > addition to reproduce the Heb. -t in Gk. (see ” E. Schwyzer, “Altes u.
                            > Neues zu
                            > [hbr.-]griech. sabbata [griech.-]lat. sabbata usw.,” Zschr. f.
                            > vergleichende
                            > Sprachforschung, 62 (1935), 10). In practical usage, however, TA SABBATA
                            > was then
                            > assimilated to the comprehensive plur. of Gk. festivals (see Schwyzer,
                            > Griech.
                            > Grammatik, II, 43 with n. 5).
                            >
                            > Secondly, when we see the noun used in Greek Biblical and related
                            > literature in
                            > the dative plural -- in either in the form TOIS SABBASIN or in the form
                            > TOIS
                            > SABBATOIS (the first in 1 Macc. 2:38; Jos.Ant., 13, 337; 16, 163; Vit.,
                            > 279, the
                            > second in Nu. 28:10 LXX; 2 Ch. 2:3 etc. and also in Jos.Ant., 3, 294; 11,
                            > 346;
                            > 12, 4 and 276 f.; 13, 252; Bell., 1, 146, it is never used to mean to mean
                            > "during Shabuoth" (see further Str-BilI, 610f.; Pr.-Bauer5, s.v.).
                            >
                            > Third, the use of the plural of the noun to mean "the Sabbath" is common
                            > in Greek
                            > Biblical and related literature. See e.g., Ex. 20:10; Jos.Ant., 3, 143.
                            > Ant., 1,
                            > 33; 3, 237; 11, 77. See too Ex. 20:8 LXX; 35:3: Dt. 5:12; Jer. 17ò21f.;
                            > Jos.Ant.,
                            > 7, 305; 12, 259 and 274; 13, 12; 14, 226 where we find hH hHMERA TWN
                            > SABBATWN
                            > used for "the Sabbath".
                            >
                            > So like your claim about what Papias is saying with his OU MENTOI TAXEI
                            > (which
                            > patently ignores the context in which these words appaer and their
                            > referent), I
                            > find this claim about the meaning of TOIS SABBASINanother example of your
                            > special
                            > pleading.
                            >
                            > Jeffrey
                            > --
                            >
                            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                            >
                            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                            > Chicago, IL 60626
                            >
                            > jgibson000@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Karel Hanhart
                            Should we not take Mark s clear distinction between sabbaton in the singular (2,27) and sabbata into account? Mark names the day of the women s vision
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 14, 2005
                              Should we not take Mark's clear distinction between 'sabbaton' in the
                              singular (2,27) and 'sabbata' into account? Mark names the day of the
                              women's vision near the monumental tomb "day one of the sabbaths (16,2
                              plural)." Because this day fell after the day of Passover, Mark must have
                              meant the first day of the Pentecostal harvest that should fall on the
                              Sunday after Passover according to Lev 23,11.15.
                              The emphasis Mark lends to the time-sequence of Good Friday (on Passover
                              Day), and the sharp contrast between the burial at the onset of the Sabbath
                              and the resurrection message on Sunday, can be explained by the sharp
                              contrast between the priestly calendar (cf Leviticus) and the (newly)
                              introduced Pharisaic calendar declaring Nisan 16 (the burial Sabbath) to be
                              the "first day of the harvest". The introduction was most likely forced on
                              the population under Herodes Agrippa I (40-44 CE); it coincided with a
                              severe persecution of the Christian adherents to Jesus (Acts 12,1).
                              Consequently, the 'healing' miracles in the face of disapproving elders,
                              Pharisees and 'Herodians' taking place in chpt 2 and 3, are wrongly labeled
                              "sabbath controversies." The term 'en tois sabbasin' (2,23.24; 3,3 and 4)
                              refers to "the harvest season" (lit. during the period of the seven
                              sabbaths); the healings reflect the beneficial 'harvest' of Jesus'ministry
                              as well as the controversy that arose after the Pharisaic calendar was
                              introduced.
                              The use of the term ''Sabbath" is highly significant and the question why
                              the early community insisted on the 'Sunday' and at the same time continued
                              hallowing the Sabbath is not an easy matter to solve. As we all agree, the
                              exegete is bound to follow Mark's own distinctions and avoid facile
                              explanations circumventing these real problems of the festival calendar.
                              Part of the explanation regarding John using 'sabbaton' (sing) in 5,9.10;
                              9,14.16 is the simple fact that the Pharisaic datings of the seven weeks of
                              Pentecost had been official for some 60 years. Another part of the
                              explanation has to do with John's peculiar dating of the crucifixion and the
                              appearnce to M.Magdalene His Gentile readers would have difficulty to
                              unravel the complications of these time indicators. John simplified the
                              controversy: With the synoptics the days remain on Friday and Sunday and
                              with the Pharisaic dating the appearance to Mary and the eleven on (Sunday)
                              Nisan 16!!

                              cordially,

                              Karel Hanhart


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Ernest Pennells" <pennells@...>
                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 8:03 PM
                              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Sabbath and Circumcision


                              >
                              >
                              > [John Poirier]
                              >>But perhaps sabbath observance is included in Paul's reference to
                              >>observing
                              > "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:10).<
                              >
                              > [Liz Williams]
                              >>Yes, and also "Some judge one day to be better than another, while others
                              > judge all days to be alike", in Rom 14:5.<
                              >
                              > Agreed, but I am not aware of any record of discord comparable with the
                              > sabbath and circumcision controversies.
                              >
                              > [John Poirier]
                              >>it isn't that Jesus healed on the sabbath ... but rather that he commanded
                              > those whom he healed to break the sabbath,... If we consider this in the
                              > light of J. L. Martyn's stereoscopic hermeneutic (as I believe we should),
                              > it would seem to imply that the Johannine church was fighting against a
                              > group insisting on sabbath observance.<
                              >
                              > Stereoscopic hermeneutic sounds like fun, John - does it come with
                              > coloured
                              > glasses? :-). Seriously, though, given the strength of the discord
                              > around
                              > sabbath and circumcision, I am amazed that we don't have direct evidence
                              > of
                              > disputes around the sabbath issue [to my knowledge: have I missed
                              > something?].
                              >
                              > [Ian Rock]
                              >>Would you not have to add a third to these - the issue of diet, which is
                              > common to the Gospels, Acts and the Pauline corpus?<
                              >
                              > Peter's vision; the domical saying about not being defiled by what enters
                              > the body; and, possibly, table fellowship issues certainly show there
                              > was
                              > disagreement on this front. But, again, somewhat low-key compared with
                              > S&C.
                              >
                              > Let's face it: sabbath was a rather more visible issue than
                              > circumcision -
                              > how did it not generate a rift? The stance attributed to Jesus in the
                              > canonical Gospels might easily have become like fuel to the fire for such
                              > a
                              > dispute, although it is hard to believe that the tradition could be taken
                              > as abrogating the sabbath, in line with the dominical saying that was
                              > said
                              > to declare all food clean.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Ernie Pennells
                              > Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
                              > Level 12 Apartment 4
                              > 28 Corniche el Nil
                              > Cairo, Egypt
                              > Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
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                              >
                              >
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