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Re: [XTalk] Jesus Temple Act

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Hi Loren, ... What do you think about the pandemonium issue? I don t know how many of these coins (with the other trade ins) would be on a given table, but
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 2, 2005
      Hi Loren,
      On Apr 2, 2005, at 7:47 AM, Loren Rosson wrote:
      > Obviously. The point is that it would have been easy
      > for Jesus to get away after raising hell with the
      > money-changers, and evade capture for a time.

      What do you think about "the pandemonium" issue? I don't know how many
      of these coins (with the other trade ins) would be on a given table,
      but if these very valuable coins just started rolling all over the
      place don't you think there would be a large scramble? Such would make
      a getaway more plausible. Any thoughts?
      > I don't think it's necessary to endorse the Johannine
      > placement of the temple incident for Fredriksen's
      > point to hold.

      Thanks for the clarification.

      > You, however, deny all of the above three (messianinc
      > enthusaism, temple incident, tax evasion) as causes
      > for arrest. (Do I understand you correctly?)

      Yes (more below).
      > So how do
      > **you** account for the "King of the Judeans'"
      > crucifixion? Or do you?
      I honestly don't know. I think "the reason(s)" he got killed was
      because he was the recognized "voice" of "a kingdom movement" that was
      taking root in Galilee, H. Philip's domain, Samaria and Judea
      (including Jerusalem). But as to the precise scenario of his
      identification at Passover time, his arrest and crucifixion I don't
      think we have records of that, rather we have a theological (and very
      effective one) drama that is part of a parable created by Mark. Just
      showing up and being identified as "this guy," as far as I'm concerned,
      is quite enough to get hauled off for official state execution by
      tortuous means of crucifixion to send the clear message that the state
      would in no way tolerate any other kingdom allegiances than those
      authorized by the state. I think that this grand drama that Mark
      creates works, as I've said, to raise up the breadth of challenges that
      were and are in Jesus' language about "God's Kingdom." Again... the
      whole messianic heritage as it was popularly interpreted (so often to
      such grievous and violent ends... and I think about the time when
      Archelaus killed 3000 of his own subjects at Passover time because of
      fears of sedition); what was being offered by the Pharisees, by the
      Saducees, by the Scribes; the current rulers of the Temple
      establishment; the current jurisprudence practice of the Temple
      leadership; the Roman system of rule, "Pax" and "law;" the mob
      mentality and even the self-assurance of Jesus' own followers is
      powerfully raised up as being **entirely** wanting. The Markan parable
      works to dramatize the choice being offered and the harsh realities for
      those in the community to live with the choice they have made. In my
      view, Mark written after the R-J war works to show precisely just how
      right Jesus was some 50 years earlier. Popular messianism was squashed
      again and again. The Roman appointed Temple establishment did nothing
      to create unity. The "law" was anything but. The Roman "Pax" was
      murderous. The mob mentality fueled by statist notions of Covenant had
      led to Vespasian and Titus coming and so the utter destruction that
      ensued. And counting on "self-assurance" was a sure path to denial or
      flight into the proverbial night. The drama, in other words, clearly
      works to show that Jesus was correct then and still correct in Mark's
      time. I'd like to no more historical details, but I just don't think
      the data we have contains them. I think what we do have is **far,
      far** more important.

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC
    • Ernest Pennells
      [Josephus] ... grew numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length from the Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 2, 2005
        >And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers,
        grew numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length
        from the Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman sicae,
        [or sickles,] as they were called; and from these weapons these robbers got
        their denomination; and with these weapons they slew a great many; for they
        mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were
        come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said
        before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay.<

        Is this fiction; or historical evidence that you could actually get away
        with murder - repeatedly - in the middle of a festival crowd? The surprise
        element still works, even when something similar has happened previously
        (One up for GJohn).


        Ernie Pennells
        Samaa el Maadi Tower No 2B
        Level 12 Apartment 4
        28 Corniche el Nil
        Cairo, Egypt
        Tel: (20-2)526 6383 Mobile 0121001490
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