Re: [XTalk] Disciples' Name changing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...>
Cc: "Michael Ensley" <mensley@...>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [XTalk] Disciples' Name changing
> At any rate, just some fun pure speculation. Whatever this, I do think
> we're dealing with a movement of connected families.
> Gordon Raynal
> Inman, SC
I think the entire movement is a family "business." James. the "greater"
and John (Yaqub bar Zebedy and Yohanon bar Zebedy) are Jesus' cousins, sons
of Zebedy and Mary's sister Salome. Matthew and James, the "lesser"
(Mattaya bar Halpy and Yaqub bar Halpy) are also cousins, the sons of
Joseph's brother Alphaeus/Clopas and the "other Mary." Another son of
Alphaeus (Shymeon) succeeds James, the Just. Yehudah Tadday (Jude
Thaddeus) was the son of James Zebedee. In addition we read of Jesus' aunts
supporting the group and accompanying them (Salome and the "other Mary).
- [David Hindley]
>The hairy thing about it, for me, is that the date of the baptist's deathseems to later than Jesus' (I find the short-order succession of events the
I'm getting a bit confused here, David. Josephus links the Herodias affair
with the Aretas war, despite the time lapse. Josephus cites JBap's
teaching, baptism and powerful influence as reasons for getting rid of him,
but in this case doesn't seem to make specific ties to events leading to the
war. Popular opinion does cite the defeat as a punishment for his
execution, but does that demand close dating?
I admit to wanting to have my cake and eat it! There seems to be widespread
acceptance that the war with Aretas came after JBap and the passion. I am
not aware of any challenge to the Herodias affair predating the Gospel
period. That leaves me lots of wriggle room. I can indulge myself on two
fronts - history and tradition. Yippee! (British translation of YEEHAAA!)
Richard Anderson's contribution to this discussion adds to your own comment
about dates being hotly debated. I lack the expertise to unravel that
>Then again, there *is* that saying about kings not going to war without"counting the costs." What thinkest thou, Ernest?<
The Dominical saying about a foolish king going to war does not necessarily
have to follow actual war with Aretas. It also makes sense in the context
of a Galilee in which Antipas is preparing for war, with scant public
support, which is exactly the scenario I am suggesting as a factor in
interpreting tradition. It also harmonises with my favourite personal
speculation (with no support that I know of): that the instructions given
to the twelve and seventy were to counter the impact of recruiting and
provisioning officers marauding around Galilee like a pack of ravenous
wolves, on a forced muster for a nervous Antipas.
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