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Re: [XTalk] Disciples' Name changing

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: fellows_richard To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk]
    Message 1 of 49 , Jan 30, 2005
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "fellows_richard" <fellows_richard@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Disciples' Name changing

      > Renaming was common in the ancient world and took various forms.
      > 1. Jews and Egyptians often took a Latin or Greek name to supplement
      > their ethnic name. Saul-Paul and John-Mark are examples of this. We
      > cannot be sure whether both names were held from infancy.
      > 2. Religious re-naming was also common. In the early church we have
      > Simon-Cephas, Joseph-Barnabas, and Ignatius-Theophorus. I believe
      > that Crispus-Sosthenes and Titus-Timothy are further examples. In
      > each of these cases the individual seems to have been given a new
      > name that reflects their role in the church. Also, there is reason
      > to believe that the one giving the new name invariably had authority
      > over the one named.

      I don't think the Semitic names are as much a "renaming" as Greek and Latin
      transliteration. "Simon-Cephas" was Shymeon bar Yonah who was nicknamed
      Kefa. "Joseph Barnabas" would have been Yahosef bar Naba. Do we know for
      sure that Shymeon bar Yonah/Kefa was ever called "Petros" in his lifetime
      and outside of the Greek NT translation from the Aramaic?
      Nathanael bar Tolmay, Yaqub bar Zebedy, Yohanon bar Zebedy, Yaqub bar Halpy,
      Mattaya bar Halpy...were any of these talmuddaya, if historical, familiar
      with their Greek transliterated names or were they renamed by the Greek
      speaking authors of the NT?


      Jack Kilmon
      San Marcos, Tx.
    • Ernest Pennells
      [David Hindley] ... seems to later than Jesus (I find the short-order succession of events the most probable)
      Message 49 of 49 , Feb 12, 2005
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        [David Hindley]
        >The hairy thing about it, for me, is that the date of the baptist's death
        seems to later than Jesus' (I find the short-order succession of events the
        most probable)<

        I'm getting a bit confused here, David. Josephus links the Herodias affair
        with the Aretas war, despite the time lapse. Josephus cites JBap's
        teaching, baptism and powerful influence as reasons for getting rid of him,
        but in this case doesn't seem to make specific ties to events leading to the
        war. Popular opinion does cite the defeat as a punishment for his
        execution, but does that demand close dating?

        I admit to wanting to have my cake and eat it! There seems to be widespread
        acceptance that the war with Aretas came after JBap and the passion. I am
        not aware of any challenge to the Herodias affair predating the Gospel
        period. That leaves me lots of wriggle room. I can indulge myself on two
        fronts - history and tradition. Yippee! (British translation of YEEHAAA!)

        Richard Anderson's contribution to this discussion adds to your own comment
        about dates being hotly debated. I lack the expertise to unravel that
        knotted skein.

        [David Hindley]
        >Then again, there *is* that saying about kings not going to war without
        "counting the costs." What thinkest thou, Ernest?<

        The Dominical saying about a foolish king going to war does not necessarily
        have to follow actual war with Aretas. It also makes sense in the context
        of a Galilee in which Antipas is preparing for war, with scant public
        support, which is exactly the scenario I am suggesting as a factor in
        interpreting tradition. It also harmonises with my favourite personal
        speculation (with no support that I know of): that the instructions given
        to the twelve and seventy were to counter the impact of recruiting and
        provisioning officers marauding around Galilee like a pack of ravenous
        wolves, on a forced muster for a nervous Antipas.


        Ernie Pennells
        Apartment 4, Level 12, Samaa El Maadi Tower No 2B,
        28 Corniche El Nil, Cairo, Egypt
        Tel: (20-2) 526 6383
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