Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Fwd: "Ruach Qadim"

Expand Messages
  • Bob Schacht
    Who are these guys? (See below). Are they Messianic Jews, an esoteric sect, or what? Is this a con, or a legitimate endeavor? BTW, do not assume that the
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 26, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Who are these guys? (See below). Are they Messianic Jews, an esoteric sect,
      or what? Is this a con, or a legitimate endeavor? BTW, do not assume that
      the websites are legit, or safe; I have not checked them out.

      Bob


      >From: list@...
      >Subject: Ruach Qadim
      >To: r_schacht@...
      >Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:31:39 +0100
      >
      >Greetings from Tushiyah!
      >
      >"Ruach Qadim - Aramaic Origins of the New Testament", the fascinating new
      >book from Andrew Gabriel Roth has started shipping! If you have not yet
      >ordered your copy, we encourage you to check it out at www.tushiyah.org.
      >The sheer volume of proofs Andrew goes into is amazing - 22 books of the
      >New Testament are examined for clues that they were actually translated
      >into Greek from earlier Aramaic manuscripts. The book is a must for
      >anyone serious about the history of the Bible. Right now, you can order
      >the book with free shipping.
      >
      >For a taste of what's in the book, you can read a not-to-be-missed excerpt
      >"The Gowra" at www.tushiyah.org/TheGowra.pdf. This requires acrobat reader
      >(free from adobe). Left click on this link to read on-line, or right
      >click and 'save-as' to download and save. This is a freely
      >re-distributable file, and once you read it, you will want to e-mail it to
      >everyone you know! Ever wonder why Y'shua's genealogy in Matthew doesn't
      >add up? This excerpt answers that question with a stunning proof that
      >Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic.
      >
      >Finally, our web site has been updated, and all recent editions of
      >"Tushiyah Thoughts" are available on the site, as well as other book excerpts.
      >
      >Thank you for your prayers,
      >
      >Ahavah b'Shem Y'shua (love in the Name of Y'shua)
      >
      >
      >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      >- - - -
      >This mailing is sent to subscribers of "Tushiyah Thoughts". If it has
      >reached you in error, we apologias, and will gladly delete your address if
      >you reply with 'offlist' in the subject.

      Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
      Northern Arizona University
      Flagstaff, AZ

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Schmuel
      Hi Xtalk, Bob, ... Schmuel Andrew Gabriel Roth is a very helpful fellow, I go to him when I have Aramaic questions, such as comparing the Peshitta with the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 31, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Xtalk,

        Bob,
        >Who are these guys? (See below). Are they Messianic Jews, an esoteric sect,
        >or what? Is this a con, or a legitimate endeavor? BTW, do not assume that
        >the websites are legit, or safe; I have not checked them out.

        Schmuel
        Andrew Gabriel Roth is a very helpful fellow, I go to him when I have Aramaic questions,
        such as comparing the Peshitta with the Masoretic Text.

        You have a mixture of "Peshitta Primacy" with a certain amount of Nazarene, Messianic,
        or Hebrew Roots type of stuff. In that sense Andrew is probably unique. I don't know
        about the other book.

        While my view of PP as a textual theory is not high, afaik everything is legit from an
        integrity standpoint.

        Shalom,
        Steven Avery
        Queens, NY
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

        >>From: list@...
        >>Subject: Ruach Qadim
        >>To: r_schacht@...
        >>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:31:39 +0100
        >>
        >>Greetings from Tushiyah!
        >>
        >>"Ruach Qadim - Aramaic Origins of the New Testament", the fascinating new
        >>book from Andrew Gabriel Roth has started shipping! If you have not yet
        >>ordered your copy, we encourage you to check it out at www.tushiyah.org.
        >>The sheer volume of proofs Andrew goes into is amazing - 22 books of the
        >>New Testament are examined for clues that they were actually translated
        >>into Greek from earlier Aramaic manuscripts. The book is a must for
        >>anyone serious about the history of the Bible. Right now, you can order
        >>the book with free shipping.
        >>
        >>For a taste of what's in the book, you can read a not-to-be-missed excerpt
        >>"The Gowra" at www.tushiyah.org/TheGowra.pdf. This requires acrobat reader
        >>(free from adobe). Left click on this link to read on-line, or right
        >>click and 'save-as' to download and save. This is a freely
        >>re-distributable file, and once you read it, you will want to e-mail it to
        >>everyone you know! Ever wonder why Y'shua's genealogy in Matthew doesn't
        >>add up? This excerpt answers that question with a stunning proof that
        >>Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic.
        >>Finally, our web site has been updated, and all recent editions of
        >>"Tushiyah Thoughts" are available on the site, as well as other book excerpts.
        >>Thank you for your prayers,
        >>Ahavah b'Shem Y'shua (love in the Name of Y'shua)
      • Bob Schacht
        ... Thanks for your comments. I d never heard of the phrase Peshitta Primacy before, although I do seem to recall some folks valuing the Peshitta more highly
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 31, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          At 01:35 AM 1/31/2005, Schmuel wrote:

          >Hi Xtalk,
          >
          >Bob,
          > >Who are these guys? (See below). Are they Messianic Jews, an esoteric sect,
          > >or what? Is this a con, or a legitimate endeavor? BTW, do not assume that
          > >the websites are legit, or safe; I have not checked them out.
          >
          >Schmuel
          >Andrew Gabriel Roth is a very helpful fellow, I go to him when I have
          >Aramaic questions,
          >such as comparing the Peshitta with the Masoretic Text.
          >
          >You have a mixture of "Peshitta Primacy" with a certain amount of
          >Nazarene, Messianic,
          >or Hebrew Roots type of stuff. In that sense Andrew is probably
          >unique. I don't know
          >about the other book.

          Thanks for your comments. I'd never heard of the phrase "Peshitta Primacy"
          before, although I do seem to recall some folks valuing the Peshitta more
          highly (for its testimony to Jesus, etc.) than most NT scholars do.


          >While my view of PP as a textual theory is not high, afaik everything is
          >legit from an
          >integrity standpoint....

          Well, I suppose, but we had someone on the list a few years ago calling
          himself a Netzarim, who reportedly lived in an Netzarim community in
          Israel. He claimed to have a New Testament in the original Aramaic, or some
          such-- not just a Peshitta, and he was advocating a different spin on some
          of our usual issues. Finally, Patristics scholar Tom Kopecek, who was then
          on the list, started questioning him closely-- very politely, but very
          astutely, as Tom can do so well. Tom uses words extremely precisely, and is
          quick to spot imprecision in an argument. In my mind's eye, Tom is like
          Zorro who can unfasten your pants with the tip of his rapier with such
          delicacy that you don't realize that they're on the floor around your feet
          until about 5 minutes later. Before long, he had exposed this guy pretty
          thoroughly. He was a former Christian preacher who had moved to Israel, and
          his original manuscript apparently turned out to be a back-translation from
          the King James version of the Bible. Tom was not trying to be mean, just
          trying to find out if he had some genuine sources that we didn't know about
          or hadn't been using. Maybe this guy was perfectly sincere, but in terms of
          scholarship, his "evidence" was worthless. So I was basically wondering if
          these Ruach Qadim people were the same folk, or something better. There are
          a lot of loonies proclaiming all kinds of things on the web.

          So what does Ruach Qadim mean? And what do they claim to know that might
          interest us?

          Bob






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Schmuel
          Hi XTalk, Hi XTalk, Schmuel ... Bob Schacht, ... Schmuel Most welcome. On one hand I am involved in actively countering some real charlatans in this realm, on
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi XTalk,

            Hi XTalk,

            Schmuel
            >>You have a mixture of "Peshitta Primacy" with a certain amount of Nazarene, Messianic,
            >>or Hebrew Roots type of stuff. In that sense Andrew is probably unique. I don't know
            >>about the other book.

            Bob Schacht,
            >Thanks for your comments. I'd never heard of the phrase "Peshitta Primacy" before, although I do seem to recall some folks valuing the Peshitta more highly (for its testimony to Jesus, etc.) than most NT scholars do.

            Schmuel
            Most welcome.

            On one hand I am involved in actively countering some real charlatans in this realm, on the other
            hand I consider Andrew Roth a friend, and a reliable information source. At one point he was on the "Beit Din" of a dubious "Nazarene" group, but had the insight to resign fairly early.

            As for the Peshitta Primacist folks, they go a little farther than that. They want to claim the Peshitta represents the original and was the source for the Greek. (granted it is in a very different dialect than Judean Aramaic and five books came later, so some take those out of their canon)

            Yes there are a LOT of major problems with that theory :-)

            Schmuel
            >>While my view of PP as a textual theory is not high, afaik everything is legit from an
            >>integrity standpoint....

            Bob,
            >Well, I suppose, but we had someone on the list a few years ago calling himself a Netzarim, who reportedly lived in an Netzarim community in Israel.

            Schmuel
            That would be the Raanana group that sells their own very pricey Matthew.

            Bob
            >He claimed to have a New Testament in the original Aramaic, or some
            >such-- not just a Peshitta, and he was advocating a different spin on some
            >of our usual issues. Finally, Patristics scholar Tom Kopecek, who was then
            >on the list, started questioning him closely--

            Schmuel
            Ahh, I would like to see that dialog in the archives :-)
            Probably in the earlier Crosstalk.

            Bob,
            >.... He was a former Christian preacher who had moved to Israel, and his original manuscript apparently turned out to be a back-translation from the King James version of the Bible.

            Schmuel
            That's good to know, as in my circles this group comes up for discussion occasionally.

            Bob,
            ...in terms of scholarship, his "evidence" was worthless. So I was basically wondering if these Ruach Qadim people were the same folk, or something better. There are a lot of loonies proclaiming all kinds of things on the web.

            Schmuel
            Most definitely, I have a 30 page article on the web discussing one blatant plagiarism that really ensnared a lot of folks, claiming to be an original translation from ancient Hebraic and Aramaic sources. . And in addition right now there is advertising for a "Dead Sea Scrolls New Testament" from "cover archives" that is simply a reference to the ultra-corrupt ShemTob Matthew. The one you mention is a similar sham.

            And then you have additional groups that put out new "versions" without giving you a hint of what they used for a base underlying text -- and of course they use their word processor and "scan a replace" "Jesus" to "Yahushua" or "LORD" to "Yahweh" or the nom du jour.

            So, yes, Bob, you are right, the apropos words are "caveat emptor".

            Andrew does hob-knob with this last reference (YATI and UONYC) that put out their "Restoration Scriptures" (they also sell his books) and is listed in their congregation list at http://2house.org/directory2.php?country=US&state=PA In those circles you can promote two or three entirely different views of the Bible text at the same time :-) You know about "consistence is the hobgoblin..."

            Nonetheless, while I disagree strongly with Andrew on his basic theories of the text, which are essentially those of the Peshitta Primacists (Paul Younan being one of the principle proponents), Andrew and Paul are on the "up and up", on an integrity level, from everything that I have seen. They actually have studied Aramaic seriously (for Paul it is his native language) and really believe what they share.

            I just wrote Andrew the other day to get the details on Genesis 47:31 from the Peshitta, since that is used as a verse to claim that the Masoretic vowels were put in later and wrong. (bed vs. staff is the issue). From what I can tell, the Peshitta does have "staff" only, on the other hand the online translation of the Targum has bed. This issue comes up especially in the context of apologetics and those who believe the NT quoted from the Greek OT (not my view :-)

            In my experience, most Peshitta primacists do not try to make a case for the Peshitta OT over the Masoretic Text (they are quite close) but of course if they can read the Aramaic NT they can read the Aramaic OT.

            Genesis 47:31
            And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed's head.

            Bob,
            > So what does Ruach Qadim mean? And what do they claim to know that might interest us?

            Ruach is spirit, perhaps Qadim is analogous to Hebrew Qodesh/Holy
            http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRHEB69.htm
            "qaddiysh kad-deesh' (Aramaic) corresponding to 'qadowsh' (<http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRHEB69.htm#S6918>6918). --holy (One), saint.
            Although in Hebrew it looks like it also mean East.
            Jack Kilmon or somebody can sort this one out.

            Here is what I found on the web if you want to see Andrew's material

            Read some at http://tushiyah.org/tt/tt20050116.html or
            http://aramaicnttruth.org/downloads/Peshitta%20Matthew%20and%20the%20Gowra%20Scenario.pdf
            And some excerpts at
            http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/2004/raca.htm
            And some more related material, by Andrew and others, including the Christopher Lancaster manuscript, at http://aramaicnttruth.org/page.php?page=home.pdf
            See also http://www.remnantfire.com/Galatians.pdf

            Their view of Eli, Eli lama sabacthani is at..
            http://joinedtohashem.org/questions/questions.html
            Why did Yeshua from the cross call out and say �My God , My God why have you forsaken me?

            Andrews writings should have some good sections, such as on the corrupt Old Syriac, and some of the history of the Peshitta text, and you will pick up a lot of Aramaic stuff, even if the basic theories are unworkable. Whenever I look at the specifics of the Peshitta Primacy claim, (things like maryah, the genealogy, pun issues, split words, the internal translations) their theories look very weak, but I have not done any extensive writings on same, just some banter on specific issues.

            His home court is the Peshitta forum, where you can see his book announcement thread at
            http://www.peshitta.org/forums/forumid6/2083.html#

            Btw, we have the Khabouris Peshitta manuscript on display a mile from my house right now, which for a while was being trumpeted as a very ancient Peshitta text, although now it is considered about 1000 AD.

            Shalom,
            Steven Avery
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            ... Looks like it might mean East Wind. Exodus 10:13a has ruach qadim for east wind, but this wind brings the locust horde to Egypt, so that s an unlikely
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 1, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Bob Schacht asked:

              >>So what does Ruach Qadim mean?<<

              Looks like it might mean "East Wind."

              Exodus 10:13a has "ruach qadim" for east wind, but
              this wind brings the locust horde to Egypt, so that's
              an unlikely allusion.

              In Arabic, "qadim" means "old," but I doubt that
              that's intended as a meaning.

              My Syriac dictionary is at the office, so I cannot
              check it.

              Jeffery Hodges

              =====
              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Department of English Language and Literature
              Korea University
              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              Seoul
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Seo-Dong 125-2
              Shin-Dong-A, Apt. 102-709
              447-710 Kyunggido, Osan-City
              South Korea
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.