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Re: [XTalk] Embarrassment and Mark 15.34

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... You need to look at the LXX version of this! Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 jgibson000@comcast.net
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 2, 2004
      Mike Grondin wrote:

      > --- Bob Schacht asked Jeffrey:
      > > The question I might ask, is why is Hezekiah's example so seldom
      > > alluded to, either in the first centuries, or in our own?
      >
      > Hi Bob,
      > Your question caused me to do a little research. My reading of 2
      > Kings 20:1-11 (which I think is what Jeffrey was referring to)
      > indicates it'd be a pretty tough sell to make it out to be an
      > example of either testing or abandonment. Looks to me like the
      > author was simply saying that it was Hezekiah's time to go, but
      > that Yahweh responded to his prayers by adding fifteen years to his
      > life. There is the three-day thingy (Yahweh/Isaiah tells Hezekiah
      > on his sick bed that he'll be well enough in three days to go to
      > the Temple), but that seems to be the only point of analogy.

      You need to look at the LXX version of this!

      Jeffrey
      --

      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

      1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
      Chicago, IL 60626

      jgibson000@...
    • Mike Grondin
      ... You mean IV Kings 20:1-11? Seems to read about the same. Mike
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 2, 2004
        --- Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
        > You need to look at the LXX version of this!

        You mean IV Kings 20:1-11? Seems to read about the same.

        Mike
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Pawel Glowacki To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Embarrassment and
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Pawel Glowacki" <paglo53@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:12 AM
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Embarrassment and Mark 15.34


          >
          >
          > I have a question concerning Mk 15;34. An Israeli friend of mine with no
          > knowledge of the Passion Story couldn't understand the words
          > ELOI ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI.
          > Then we looked into The Book of Psalms in Hebrew and found that what is
          > there is actually
          > ELI ELI LAMA AZAVTANI,
          > which made a perfect sense to her. Is the Hebrew part of Mk 15;34
          > distorted? How is this explained?
          > Pawel


          The cry from the cross is in the language spoken at the time, Aramaic, not
          distorted Hebrew. Mark attempts to transliterate it in Greek. The Aramaic
          would be aLOho, aLOho, lama shevawkTAni. In Hebrew, it is as in Psalm 22.
          The cry from the cross becomes a targumic one-liner.

          Jack Kilmon
          San Marcos, Texas
        • sdavies0
          Paul uses paradidomai in Romans 8:32 to mean that God delivered up Jesus. There is no reason to think that he thinks otherwise in 1 Cor. 11:23 where Jesus is
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
            Paul uses paradidomai in Romans 8:32 to mean that God delivered up
            Jesus. There is no reason to think that he thinks otherwise in 1 Cor.
            11:23 where Jesus is delivered up (paredideto).

            Steve Davies
          • Jack Kilmon
            I don t think Lamsa s translation, which is a combination of modern Assyrian idiom and a theological bent, is credible. Lamsa s translation is of the Peshitta
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
              I don't think Lamsa's translation, which is a combination of modern Assyrian
              idiom and a theological bent, is credible. Lamsa's translation is of the
              Peshitta which is a Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament. Jesus
              did not speak Syriac. Syriiac is a late Eastern dialect while Jesus spoke a
              MIDDLE Western dialect. The Matthean scribe copied Mark but redacted the
              line. I don't think he was that facile in Aramaic. Mark transliterated in
              Greek, ELWI ELWI LEMA SABAXQANI.

              sabaxqany is, in Aramaic, $bqtny, and it means "forsake/abandon-you-me"
              Jesus would have read scripture in Hebrew but expounded on it, in sermons,
              in his first language, Aramaic, or under great pain and stress. Mark 15:34
              is Psalms 22:1 and the embarrassment over the cry for some will just have to
              stand.

              Jack



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James Hammond" <jhammond@...>
              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 7:06 AM
              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Embarrassment and Mark 15.34


              >
              >
              > In The Holy Bible Aramaic translation by George M Lamsa, he translates it
              > as
              > ‘And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, “Eli,
              > Eli, lmana shabakthani! My God, My God, for this I was spared, this was my
              > destiny”’ He therefore claims that Jesus is not quoting Psalm 22, stating
              > that nashatani means ‘forsaken me’ whilst Sabachthani means ‘kept me’.
              >
              > The whole idea of God the Father 'turning his back' on Jesus seems
              > impossible. Bob Passantino has an excellent article on this, titled "Did
              > the
              > Father Leave the Son on the Cross?" and James Oliver Buswell's Systematic
              > Theology of the Christian Religion also goes into detail about this.
              >
              > I'm assuming I'm answering the right query in your posting!
              >
              > Regards
              > James Hammond
              > Pastor, Worldwide Church of God, Ramsey, United Kingdom
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Pawel Glowacki [mailto:paglo53@...]
              > Sent: 03 November 2004 07:13
              > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [XTalk] Embarrassment and Mark 15.34
              >
              >
              >
              > I have a question concerning Mk 15;34. An Israeli friend of mine with no
              > knowledge of the Passion Story couldn't understand the words ELOI ELOI
              > LAMA
              > SABACHTHANI.
              > Then we looked into The Book of Psalms in Hebrew and found that what is
              > there is actually ELI ELI LAMA AZAVTANI, which made a perfect sense to
              > her.
              > Is the Hebrew part of Mk 15;34 distorted? How is this explained?
              > Pawel
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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