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Re: [XTalk] Embarrassment and Mark 15.34

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  • Zeba Crook
    Dear Mark, I agree. In addition, I would want to see *how* we know this to have been embarrassing. An argument for authenticity according to the criterion of
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 2, 2004
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      Dear Mark,

      I agree. In addition, I would want to see *how* we know this to have
      been embarrassing. An argument for authenticity according to the
      criterion of embarrassment would be more compelling by pointing to
      Matthean or Lukan redaction that illustrates their own embarrassment, or
      manuscript variants that reflect scribal or orthodox embarrassment. But
      both types of evidence are lacking (you could argue that Luke was
      embarrassed, but then have to explain why Matt was not, and the MSS
      tradition attests to plenty of variants in that short passage, but none
      of them appear to be theologically motivated).

      Cheers,

      Zeb

      Mark Goodacre wrote:

      >It is commonly said in historical Jesus studies that Mark 15.34,
      >Jesus' cry of dereliction on the cross, satisfies the criterion of
      >"embarrassment" or "against the grain". But I am puzzled by this.
      >Mark's entire Passion Narrative tells the story of Jesus' loneliness
      >and abandonment, from the moment when "everyone deserted him and fled"
      >in Mark 14.50, including a young man who even left his clothes behind
      >in his flight (Mark 14.51-2). Mark apparently sees this as in
      >fulfilment of the Scriptures (Mark 14.27, "I will strike the shepherd
      >and the sheep will be scattered", Zech. 13.7) and repeatedly stresses
      >Jesus' loneliness in his final hours. Everyone, even those crucified
      >with him, join in the mockery (15.32 etc.). So when Mark has Jesus
      >uttering the words of Psalm 22.1, where Jesus expresses his
      >abandonment even by God (15.34), this is just where the narrative has
      >been leading all along. What's more, this is just what one might
      >expect of a victim of crucifixion -- he is experiencing the "anomalous
      >frightful", the totally shameful and degrading death on the cross. In
      >what way is Mark in the least bit embarrassed by this? He is telling
      >a compelling story of a victim of the most vile of punishments, is he
      >not?
      >
      >Mark
      >
      >
      >

      --

      Zeba A. Crook

      Assistant Professor, Classics and Religion

      Carleton University

      2a54 Paterson Hall

      1125 Colonel By Drive

      Ottawa, Ontario

      K1S 5B6

      http://www.carleton.ca/~zcrook/ <http://www.carleton.ca/%7Ezcrook/>







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Pawel Glowacki
      I have a question concerning Mk 15;34. An Israeli friend of mine with no knowledge of the Passion Story couldn t understand the words ELOI ELOI LAMA
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 2, 2004
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        I have a question concerning Mk 15;34. An Israeli friend of mine with no
        knowledge of the Passion Story couldn't understand the words
        ELOI ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI.
        Then we looked into The Book of Psalms in Hebrew and found that what is
        there is actually
        ELI ELI LAMA AZAVTANI,
        which made a perfect sense to her. Is the Hebrew part of Mk 15;34
        distorted? How is this explained?
        Pawel
      • James Hammond
        In The Holy Bible Aramaic translation by George M Lamsa, he translates it as ‘And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, “Eli, Eli,
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 3, 2004
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          In The Holy Bible Aramaic translation by George M Lamsa, he translates it as
          ‘And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, “Eli,
          Eli, lmana shabakthani! My God, My God, for this I was spared, this was my
          destiny”’ He therefore claims that Jesus is not quoting Psalm 22, stating
          that nashatani means ‘forsaken me’ whilst Sabachthani means ‘kept me’.

          The whole idea of God the Father 'turning his back' on Jesus seems
          impossible. Bob Passantino has an excellent article on this, titled "Did the
          Father Leave the Son on the Cross?" and James Oliver Buswell's Systematic
          Theology of the Christian Religion also goes into detail about this.

          I'm assuming I'm answering the right query in your posting!

          Regards
          James Hammond
          Pastor, Worldwide Church of God, Ramsey, United Kingdom



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Pawel Glowacki [mailto:paglo53@...]
          Sent: 03 November 2004 07:13
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Embarrassment and Mark 15.34



          I have a question concerning Mk 15;34. An Israeli friend of mine with no
          knowledge of the Passion Story couldn't understand the words ELOI ELOI LAMA
          SABACHTHANI.
          Then we looked into The Book of Psalms in Hebrew and found that what is
          there is actually ELI ELI LAMA AZAVTANI, which made a perfect sense to her.
          Is the Hebrew part of Mk 15;34 distorted? How is this explained?
          Pawel







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