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Re: [XTalk] Devotion given exclusively to Yahweh (was: Davies' book and some other stuff)

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  • Rikk Watts
    Ken, I m just heading out the door for a few days away, and I know this brief response will hardly suffice. My good friend Crispin-Fletcher Louis has raised
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 24, 2004
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      Ken,

      I'm just heading out the door for a few days away, and I know this brief
      response will hardly suffice. My good friend Crispin-Fletcher Louis has
      raised these texts in several works in which he argues that there are some
      five texts (two of which are 1 Enoch 48 and 62, I'm not sure I see the
      relevance of 46) in which a human figure is worshipped by pious Jews.
      Hurtado responds to Crispin on pp.37-42. He first notes that
      prostration/proskynein do not themselves at all indicate the same thing as
      Yahweh-devotion (and I would gloss, nor what the English "worship" connotes)
      since the key issue is what is implied by this not uncommon act (citing his
      own earlier work, "Binitarian Shape of Early Christian Worship," and
      Johannes Worst, Proskynein: Zur Anbetung im Urchstientum nach ihrer
      religionsgeschichtlichen Eigenart). WRT the Enoch passages he cites Black's
      commentary on 1 Enoch where these texts seem more related to the fulfillment
      of Isaianic promises re Israel and the nations (cf. Isa 45.14; 49:7, 23;
      60:14) than implying worship of a divine being. Cf. Rev 3:9 where the
      Christians at Philadelphia are promised that they will receive worship, i.e.
      proskynesousin.
      Apologies this is so brief, must dash
      Rikk


      On 24/10/04 4:22 PM, "Ken Olson" <kenolson101@...> wrote:

      >
      > On Saturday, 23 October, 2004, Rikk Watts wrote:
      >
      >>> What is it about Jesus' shamanism/prophetism that he ends up so quickly
      >>> being offered devotion previously given exclusively to Yahweh, and that by
      >>> people who are otherwise still strict (Jewish) monotheists? This is, surely
      >>> unquestionably, unique and suggests that although typical
      >>> shamanism/prophetism might provide some parallels, they apparently fall
      >>> short at this critical juncture.<<
      >
      > Rikk,
      >
      > I suspect you're relying on Hurtado for this "surely, unquestionably unique"
      > bit about devotion not exclusively to Yahweh. I haven't yet been able to check
      > _Lord Jesus Christ_ or the revised edition of _One God, One Lord_. What does
      > Hurtado do with the Son of Man figure in the Parables of Enoch (1 Enoch
      > 37-71); whom God places on his throne and who appears to be an object of
      > worship?
      >
      > 1 Enoch 46.4-5 >>This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would
      > remove the kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats and the
      > strong ones from their thrones. He shall loosen the reigns of the strong and
      > crush the teeth of the sinners. He shall depose the kings from their thrones
      > and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, who is the source of
      > their kingship.
      >
      > 1 Enoch 48.2-5 >>At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name in the
      > presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of
      > the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the
      > presence of the Lord of Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones
      > in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the
      > gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts.
      > All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall down and worship before him;
      > they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of Spirits.
      >
      > 1 Enoch 62.5-9 >>One half portion of them shall glance at the other half; they
      > shall be terrified and dejected; and pain shall seize them when they see the
      > Son of Man sitting on the throne of his glory. (These) kings, governors, and
      > all the landlords shall (try to) bless, glorify, and extol him who rules over
      > everything, him who has been concealed from the beginning. For the Son of Man
      > was concealed from the beginning, and the Most High One preserved him in the
      > presence of his power; then he revealed him to the holy and elect ones. The
      > congregation of the holy ones shall be planted, and all the elect ones shall
      > stand before him. On that day, all the kings, the governors, the high
      > officials, and those who rule the earth shall fall down before him on their
      > faces, and worship and raise their hopes in that Son of Man; they shall beg
      > and plead for mercy at his feet<< [all trans. from E. Isaac, "1 Enoch", in
      > Charlesworth, OTP v. 2, 1983, pp. 5-89].
      >
      > Milik argued that Parables of Enoch was a third century Christian text, but
      > this opinion has been strongly rejected by most others who consider it a
      > Jewish work of the first century BCE or CE (including Isaac; J. J. Collins in
      > _The Apocalyptic Imagination_, pp.142-154, and G. Nickelsburg; see especially
      > the latter's entry on 1 Enoch in the ABD; unfortunately, the second volume of
      > N.'s commentary on 1 Enoch, which will deal with the Parables, has not yet
      > been published).
      >
      > Best Wishes,
      >
      > Ken
      >
      > Kenneth A. Olson
      > MA, History, University of Maryland
      > PhD Student, Theology, University of Birmingham
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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