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Re: [XTalk] Luke 11: the LP

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  • Jim West
    ... I think you are right to wonder about the significance here. Clearly the disciples would have known one or two prayers. But the essence of prayer may
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
      At 04:30 PM 7/25/2004, you wrote:
      >In Luke 11:1 we read,
      > >He was praying in a certain place, and after he had finished, one of his
      > >disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his
      > disciples."
      >
      >prayers. So the question occurs (to me, at least) whether the disciple [or
      >Luke] was asking not about what words to use, but about method and
      >attitude.

      I think you are right to wonder about the significance here. Clearly the
      disciples would have known one or two prayers. But the "essence" of prayer
      may have eluded them (as it does many who simply repeat by rote). Maybe
      the real statement is something like "Lord, we need to know how to really
      pray."

      >Just wondering, because this passage came up in the lectionary today, and I
      >have most of my Bible study books boxed up for my move to Hawaii....

      Ack! That's a long way. But it's pleasant there.

      Jim


      ++++++++++++++++++++

      Jim West, ThD
      Pastor, First Baptist Church Petros
      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest Biblical Studies Resources
    • Bob MacDonald
      Bob It seems to me the juxtaposition in Luke may be helpful - the Oratio Domini occurs just after Mary and Martha - the Mary who has chosen the better part;
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
        Bob

        It seems to me the juxtaposition in Luke may be helpful -
        the Oratio Domini occurs just after Mary and Martha - the
        Mary who has chosen the better part; and just before the
        three loaves and the 'ask and it will be given' pericope.
        See the colour coded version at
        http://bmd.gx.ca/synoptic/tuel_only_x.htm#185

        Matthew's context is in contrast to Luke's. Matthew's is
        between 'not like the hypocrites' and 'not like the
        Gentiles' and it includes Mark's serious warning about
        forgiveness.

        Bob

        Bob MacDonald
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        Victoria, B.C., Canada

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        http://peleyah.ca
      • William Arnal
        ... What do you mean, what did he [the disciple] mean? Have we now sunk to tossing over 100 years of scholarship out the window, so that we can revert to naive
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
          Hello Bob et al.:

          >In Luke 11:1 we read,
          > >He was praying in a certain place, and after he had finished, one of his
          > >disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his
          >disciples."
          >
          >Matthew's version presents the LP as part of the sermon on the mount,
          >unprompted by any questions, or references to John. [Has anyone compared
          >the the SOTM to John's farewell discourses? But I digress...]
          >
          >What exactly did the disciple [or, perhaps, Luke] mean by his question?

          What do you mean, what did he [the disciple] mean? Have we now sunk to
          tossing over 100 years of scholarship out the window, so that we can revert
          to naive speculations about the personal motivations of "individuals" whose
          existence we only know of through texts? Shall we set aside source
          criticism, form criticism, redaction criticism, and every other interesting
          thing generations of scholars have conjured up, and return instead to
          "interpreting" biblical aporiae by adducing speculative details of fact
          which the author (or rather, *recorder*) neglected to convey, thereby
          rendering his otherwise-accurate tale narratively bumby? The question is
          framed in exactly the wrong way. And in fact the answer is already contained
          in your observations about the text's parallel in Matthew. What follows is
          just elementary source criticism . . .

          No matter which of the three major source-critical hypotheses one subscribes
          to, Luke's Lord's Prayer is derivative of some other text. By the 2-source
          hypothesis, that text is Q. By either the Goulder-Goodacre hypothesis (I
          LIKE that -- I'm gonna start calling it that), OR the Griesbach-Farmer
          hypothesis, radically different though they may be, Luke is dependent on
          Matthew for this text. In any of the three cases, moreover, Luke's source
          has the prayer embedded in speech material -- since Matthew has it in the
          larger Sermonic discourse, and since Q is more or less a sayings source in
          toto. If, therefore, Luke wants to give the prayer a narrative context, he
          is forced to INVENT that context. And so the question becomes, NOT What did
          Jesus' interlocutor intend? but What did the author of Luke intend by the
          question? There's no "perhaps" about it.

          As for the problem you identify . . .

          >The usual assumption seems to be that the request was for *words*,
          >especially because that is how Luke's Jesus appears to respond. But its not
          >like Jews (or even Galileans, for that matter) didn't know any words for
          >prayers.

          This is not so much a problem if one reframes the question I as have, since
          we are not dealing anymore with Galilean Jews, or any Jews at all, but an
          urban Gentile of the late first century or even later. As my Doktorvater is
          once reputed to have said, "Luke wouldn't know a Samaritan if one bit him on
          the ***." I suspect his knowledge of Galileans and Judeans was comparable.

          But I actually don't think that is the solution to your problem. What I
          think is going on here -- and this could be applied to your original
          question as much as my reframing of it as a literary issue -- is that the
          disciple is asking for a SECTARIAN prayer. This is implied by the reference
          to John. The point intended by Luke is not: "how should one pray?" but: "how
          should WE, i.e., Jesus-people, pray, as distinct from other people?" Jesus'
          response is to offer a short prayer with few sectarian markers, and so to
          demonstrate his distinction -- and the distinction of his movement -- from
          other sectarian groups. That, at least, seems to me what Luke has in mind,
          and doesn't require us to speculate about the motives of anonymous (and
          probably non-existent) people, although, as I say, this explanation COULD
          apply to a real person as much as to a literary character -- it's just that
          this text gives us no reason to posit such a real person.

          regards,
          Bill
          ______________________
          William Arnal
          University of Regina

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        • Bob Schacht
          ... Well, gee, Bill, it is great that you ve been roused out of lurk mode, and I m happy to be the one to do it, but aren t you over-reacting just a wee bit
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
            At 05:11 PM 7/25/2004, William Arnal wrote:

            >Hello Bob et al.:
            >
            > >In Luke 11:1 we read,
            > > >He was praying in a certain place, and after he had finished, one of his
            > > >disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his
            > disciples."
            > >
            > >Matthew's version presents the LP as part of the sermon on the mount,
            > >unprompted by any questions, or references to John. ...
            > >
            > >What exactly did the disciple [or, perhaps, Luke] mean by his question?
            >
            >What do you mean, what did he [the disciple] mean? Have we now sunk to
            >tossing over 100 years of scholarship out the window, so that we can revert
            >to naive speculations about the personal motivations of "individuals" whose
            >existence we only know of through texts? Shall we set aside source
            >criticism, form criticism, redaction criticism, and every other interesting
            >thing generations of scholars have conjured up, and return instead to
            >"interpreting" biblical aporiae by adducing speculative details of fact
            >which the author (or rather, *recorder*) neglected to convey, thereby
            >rendering his otherwise-accurate tale narratively bumby? The question is
            >framed in exactly the wrong way.

            Well, gee, Bill, it is great that you've been roused out of lurk mode, and
            I'm happy to be the one to do it, but aren't you over-reacting just a wee
            bit here? Obviously, I was hedging about the source, but you're reacting as
            if I'm a Biblical literalist, ignoring the hedge. And we've known each
            other (on XTalk and its precursor) for long enough that, unless you're
            afflicted by some form of premature dementia, that's not my stance. So why
            the blunderbuss?

            >And in fact the answer is already contained
            >in your observations about the text's parallel in Matthew. What follows is
            >just elementary source criticism . . .
            >
            >No matter which of the three major source-critical hypotheses one subscribes
            >to, Luke's Lord's Prayer is derivative of some other text.

            But this critical model, as you've presented it, is that *only* texts can
            be a source. To which I say, sir, um, that I beg to differ.

            >By the 2-source hypothesis, that text is Q. By either the Goulder-Goodacre
            >hypothesis (I
            >LIKE that -- I'm gonna start calling it that), OR the Griesbach-Farmer
            >hypothesis, radically different though they may be, Luke is dependent on
            >Matthew for this text.

            This ignores the *possibility* that, by G-G or G-F, or Q, Luke blended one
            of his own sources with a known literary source (Matthew or Q)

            Furthermore, it has been obvious for a long time that Matthew's SOTM is a
            compilation of sayings scattered in time and space, stripped of their
            original narrative frame, so how can you be so sure that it is Luke who
            adds, rather than Matthew who subtracts?

            >In any of the three cases, moreover, Luke's source
            >has the prayer embedded in speech material -- since Matthew has it in the
            >larger Sermonic discourse, and since Q is more or less a sayings source in
            >toto. If, therefore, Luke wants to give the prayer a narrative context, he
            >is forced to INVENT that context.

            Oh, foo. Again, you are portraying a context in which Luke has no sources
            other than Mark and Q (or Matthew, if you prefer), despite his claim at the
            opening of his Gospel. You may be right, but you cannot prove it. I suppose
            that, by your reasoning, Special Luke is 100% authorial creation. I don't
            buy it. In fact, I reject both extremes: that Special Luke is either 0% or
            100% authorial creation.

            >And so the question becomes, NOT What did
            >Jesus' interlocutor intend? but What did the author of Luke intend by the
            >question?

            It may have escaped your notice that was included in my question.

            >There's no "perhaps" about it.

            I beg to differ, as outlined above.


            >As for the problem you identify . . .
            >
            > >The usual assumption seems to be that the request was for *words*,
            > >especially because that is how Luke's Jesus appears to respond. But its not
            > >like Jews (or even Galileans, for that matter) didn't know any words for
            > >prayers.
            >
            >This is not so much a problem if one reframes the question I as have, since
            >we are not dealing anymore with Galilean Jews, or any Jews at all, but an
            >urban Gentile of the late first century or even later. As my Doktorvater is
            >once reputed to have said, "Luke wouldn't know a Samaritan if one bit him on
            >the ***." I suspect his knowledge of Galileans and Judeans was comparable.
            >
            >But I actually don't think that is the solution to your problem. What I
            >think is going on here -- and this could be applied to your original
            >question as much as my reframing of it as a literary issue -- is that the
            >disciple is asking for a SECTARIAN prayer. This is implied by the reference
            >to John. The point intended by Luke is not: "how should one pray?" but: "how
            >should WE, i.e., Jesus-people, pray, as distinct from other people?" Jesus'
            >response is to offer a short prayer with few sectarian markers, and so to
            >demonstrate his distinction -- and the distinction of his movement -- from
            >other sectarian groups. That, at least, seems to me what Luke has in mind,
            >and doesn't require us to speculate about the motives of anonymous (and
            >probably non-existent) people, although, as I say, this explanation COULD
            >apply to a real person as much as to a literary character -- it's just that
            >this text gives us no reason to posit such a real person.

            This is a reasonable framing, especially if one dates Luke late, since by
            then the issue of a corporate identity (18th Benediction or not) different
            from Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah would have been
            more pressing. The issue then would not be, as I asked, one of attitude or
            method, but one of corporate identity.

            Despite the [unnecessary, in my view] scolding, it is good to hear from you
            again <g>.
            Bob


            Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
            Northern Arizona University
            Flagstaff, AZ

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Arnal
            ... Precisely BECAUSE I figured you weren t a biblical literalist, nor were arguing for such a position, but then in fact included the OBVIOUS first (literary)
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
              Howdy again Bob:

              >Well, gee, Bill, it is great that you've been roused out of lurk mode, and
              >I'm happy to be the one to do it, but aren't you over-reacting just a wee
              >bit here? Obviously, I was hedging about the source, but you're reacting as
              >if I'm a Biblical literalist, ignoring the hedge. And we've known each
              >other (on XTalk and its precursor) for long enough that, unless you're
              >afflicted by some form of premature dementia, that's not my stance. So why
              >the blunderbuss?

              Precisely BECAUSE I figured you weren't a biblical literalist, nor were
              arguing for such a position, but then in fact included the OBVIOUS first
              (literary) question only as a parenthetic aside. Moreover, the framing of
              your question/problem -- wouldn't a first-century Jew, even a Galilean know
              better -- took for granted the literalist (i.e., historical) reading of the
              text and backgrounded the textual reading of the text. But look, if I
              misread you, apologies all around -- obviously you're in a better position
              to know what you meant than I am.

              >But this critical model, as you've presented it, is that *only* texts can
              >be a source. To which I say, sir, um, that I beg to differ.

              Not at all my point. It is obvious that Luke has either oral or at least
              no-longer-extant (in addition to Q) written sources, because of all that "L"
              stuff in the middle of the Gospel, which I do NOT think Luke simply made up
              (and for good reasons -- he often seems unable to effectively interpret or
              use this material, which suggests he derived it from a source and did the
              best he could with it). Rather, it's that when we HAVE an obvious source
              from which Luke has derived text x, then in the absence of a sustained
              argument, or evidence, to the contrary, we must assume that Luke has
              introduced the changes to this source where he differs from it. It is not
              that the alternative CANNOT be the case, but that Lukan alteration is the
              simplest and most elegant explanation -- again, barring any evidence or
              argument to the contrary. I see no such evidence for the Lord's prayer, nor
              have heard any argument from you about why Luke must have had a source other
              than Q (or Matthew). So it seems that with this text -- and only with this
              text -- we'll have to assume Luke introduced the changes. Unless one can
              show otherwise. It would be a total misrepresentation of my argument here,
              however, to claim that I am suggesting that Luke had no other sources,
              period. By my reading (i.e., as a Q proponent), he must have had at least
              three. At least. But not three different sources for this single pericope!

              >Furthermore, it has been obvious for a long time that Matthew's SOTM is a
              >compilation of sayings scattered in time and space, stripped of their
              >original narrative frame, so how can you be so sure that it is Luke who
              >adds, rather than Matthew who subtracts?

              Because if Luke is literarily dependent on Matthew, then he is dependent on
              the SOTM in its Matthean form, whether that form is secondary or not.

              >Oh, foo. Again, you are portraying a context in which Luke has no sources
              >other than Mark and Q (or Matthew, if you prefer), despite his claim at the
              >opening of his Gospel. You may be right, but you cannot prove it. I suppose
              >that, by your reasoning, Special Luke is 100% authorial creation. I don't
              >buy it. In fact, I reject both extremes: that Special Luke is either 0% or
              >100% authorial creation.

              As I state above, this is a significant misrepresentation of my argument.
              "Special Luke" is by definition constituted by unparalleled pericopes -- it
              is not Lukan redactional emendation of material whose sources have been
              identified (i.e., Mark and Q; or Mark and Matthew, depending on your source
              hypothesis). It is of course possible that material unique to Luke -- oral
              or written -- has overlapped with material derived from other sources and
              has influenced Luke's redaction of those sources -- there are, in my view,
              several instances of Mark-Q overlap, for example. BUT: 1) those overlaps
              must be demonstrated, not posited in the absence of evidence; and 2) EVEN if
              such sources existed, why assume that THEY are any more historically
              "authentic" than Luke is? In other words, even if Luke didn't himself invent
              this interlocutor (which he surely did!), there's no reason to assume this
              narrative is authentic. But Luke did invent this narrative frame.

              >This is a reasonable framing, especially if one dates Luke late, since by
              >then the issue of a corporate identity (18th Benediction or not) different
              >from Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah would have been
              >more pressing. The issue then would not be, as I asked, one of attitude or
              >method, but one of corporate identity.

              Precisely! And in fact, I would think this explanation would serve even in
              the extremely unlikely event that the episode actually happened. But you're
              right -- it works better in Luke's historical context than elsewhere. This
              is yet another indication, I would think, that the whole framing is a Lukan
              creation.

              >Despite the [unnecessary, in my view] scolding, it is good to hear from you
              >again <g>.

              Likewise. Great news about Hawaii, I would think. Did I hear/read that
              right?

              cheers,
              Bill
              ______________________
              William Arnal
              University of Regina

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            • Joseph Weaks
              ... True, and hedging on source is an acceptable suspension of some questions for the sake of exploring others, but it is a good reminder that searching for a
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
                On Jul 25, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Bob Schacht wrote:
                > At 05:11 PM 7/25/2004, William Arnal wrote:
                >> ...Shall we set aside source
                >> criticism, form criticism, redaction criticism, and every other
                >> interesting
                >> thing generations of scholars have conjured up, and return instead to
                >> "interpreting" biblical aporiae by adducing speculative details of
                >> fact
                >> which the author (or rather, *recorder*) neglected to convey, thereby
                >> rendering his otherwise-accurate tale narratively bumby? The question
                >> is
                >> framed in exactly the wrong way.
                >
                > Well, gee, Bill, it is great that you've been roused out of lurk mode,
                > and
                > I'm happy to be the one to do it, but aren't you over-reacting just a
                > wee
                > bit here? Obviously, I was hedging about the source...

                True, and hedging on source is an acceptable suspension of some
                questions for the sake of exploring others, but it is a good reminder
                that searching for a hermeneutic based upon an
                story-at-historical-face-value offers little more than a creative
                exercise.

                >> And in fact the answer is already contained
                >> in your observations about the text's parallel in Matthew. What
                >> follows is
                >> just elementary source criticism . . .
                >>
                >> No matter which of the three major source-critical hypotheses one
                >> subscribes
                >> to, Luke's Lord's Prayer is derivative of some other text.
                >> By the 2-source hypothesis, that text is Q. By either the
                >> Goulder-Goodacre
                >> hypothesis (I
                >> LIKE that -- I'm gonna start calling it that),

                Me, too. I've already adopted the habit of calling it Goulder-Goodacre
                hypothesis in my last course as well.

                >> But I actually don't think that is the solution to your problem. What
                >> I
                >> think is going on here -- and this could be applied to your original
                >> question as much as my reframing of it as a literary issue -- is that
                >> the
                >> disciple is asking for a SECTARIAN prayer.

                You may accuse me of being a form critical reductionist here, but I
                would argue that the introduction to the Lord's Prayer in Luke has
                significance exactly equal to zero. There was this tradition of a
                Lord's Prayer, that Luke knew from Matthew or Q and his own church
                perhaps as well, and wanted it included in his telling of the gospel,
                so he simply used this brief context to introduce the prayer. It's
                like... "A guy walks into a bar..." Well, who cares WHY the guy walked
                into the bar, or what bar he walked into. It's just filler, a segue
                (and not a very smooth one, as was noted).

                I really like focusing on the Lord's prayer, cause it makes an
                interesting study regarding its traditional use in contemporary
                churches.
                In my sermon this morning, I spoke about the way these versions of the
                Lord's Prayer offer exemplify that tradition affects how it is we speak
                to God, even in the midst of Luke's context, where prayer is offered as
                the means of getting out of our ruts (beds) and continually being
                renewed by our ongoing conversation with God.

                Cheers,
                Joe

                **************************************************************
                Rev. Joseph A. Weaks
                Senior Minister, Bethany Christian Church, Dallas
                Ph.D. (Cand.), Brite Divinity School, Ft. Worth
                j.weaks@...
                **************************************************************
              • William Arnal
                Hi again, all. ... That s NOT an accusation I would be likely to make! ... In terms of Lukan style, this is eminently plausible. Consider Luke s introduction
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
                  Hi again, all.

                  Joseph Weaks wrote:

                  >You may accuse me of being a form critical reductionist here, but I

                  That's NOT an accusation I would be likely to make!

                  >would argue that the introduction to the Lord's Prayer in Luke has
                  >significance exactly equal to zero. There was this tradition of a
                  >Lord's Prayer, that Luke knew from Matthew or Q and his own church
                  >perhaps as well, and wanted it included in his telling of the gospel,
                  >so he simply used this brief context to introduce the prayer. It's
                  >like... "A guy walks into a bar..." Well, who cares WHY the guy walked
                  >into the bar, or what bar he walked into. It's just filler, a segue
                  >(and not a very smooth one, as was noted).

                  In terms of Lukan style, this is eminently plausible. Consider Luke's
                  introduction to yet another (I would argue) Q passage, the business about
                  faith as a grain of mustard seed (Luke 17:5-6; Matt 17:20; and various
                  doublets). Matthew integrates this into a Markan story. Luke slaps it into
                  an extended discourse with the rather sad segue, "The apostles said to the
                  Lord, 'Increase our faith!' And the Lord said . . ." (Luke 17:5-6).
                  Similarly, Luke/Q 17:35-37: "There will be two woman grinding together; one
                  will be taken and the other left. [. . .] *And they said to him, 'Where,
                  Lord?'* He said to them, 'Where the body is, there the vultures will be
                  gathered together." The "where, Lord?" doesn't even really make sense -- it
                  certainly is a not reasonable response to what Jesus is saying, and is
                  obviously only tossed in here to provide narrative segue to yet another Q
                  saying.

                  I would argue, though, that even if the point of all of these (and other)
                  Lukan narrative transitions is really just to serve as narrative
                  transitions, it is in some cases clear that Luke had something in mind --
                  that he framed things one way, as opposed to another way, for some sort of
                  reason. Thus, for instance, the "increase our faith" -- certainly a
                  throw-away line -- is still a clear manifestation of Luke's desire to
                  present the disciples (NB, here, "apostles"!) in a positive light. And so
                  the saying about faith becomes an instruction, rather than an indictment. In
                  short, I do think you're right that the main point of Luke 11:1 is precisely
                  to introduce the specific sayings material on prayer, and not much else. But
                  there is still, in the specific framing Luke gives it, some trace of Luke's
                  own concerns, e.g., classically, with prayer; but also, I would say, with
                  "sectarian" identity, manifested here in the reference to John's disciples.

                  regards,
                  Bill
                  ______________________
                  William Arnal
                  University of Regina

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                • Bob Schacht
                  ... Gee, I had no idea that parentheses were so demeaning . I did not mean the parentheses to be a mere aside, but rather an alternative of equivalent value
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
                    At 07:35 PM 7/25/2004, Bill Arnal wrote:

                    >Howdy again Bob:
                    >
                    > >... aren't you over-reacting just a wee
                    > >bit here? Obviously, I was hedging about the source, but you're reacting as
                    > >if I'm a Biblical literalist, ignoring the hedge. ...
                    >
                    >Precisely BECAUSE I figured you weren't a biblical literalist, nor were
                    >arguing for such a position, but then in fact included the OBVIOUS first
                    >(literary) question only as a parenthetic aside.

                    Gee, I had no idea that parentheses were so demeaning <g>. I did not mean
                    the parentheses to be a mere aside, but rather an alternative of equivalent
                    value (which probably won't satisfy you).

                    >Moreover, the framing of
                    >your question/problem -- wouldn't a first-century Jew, even a Galilean know
                    >better -- took for granted the literalist (i.e., historical) reading of the
                    >text and backgrounded the textual reading of the text. But look, if I
                    >misread you, apologies all around -- obviously you're in a better position
                    >to know what you meant than I am.

                    Again, I did not mean to privilege a literalist reading. To avoid other
                    distractions, then, why did Luke frame the LP with a disciple's question,
                    and why did he include J the B as a point of reference?


                    > >But this critical model, as you've presented it, is that *only* texts can
                    > >be a source. To which I say, sir, um, that I beg to differ.
                    >
                    >Not at all my point. It is obvious that Luke has either oral or at least
                    >no-longer-extant (in addition to Q) written sources, because of all that "L"
                    >stuff in the middle of the Gospel, which I do NOT think Luke simply made up
                    >(and for good reasons -- he often seems unable to effectively interpret or
                    >use this material, which suggests he derived it from a source and did the
                    >best he could with it).

                    Thanks for the clarification.

                    >Rather, it's that when we HAVE an obvious source
                    >from which Luke has derived text x, then in the absence of a sustained
                    >argument, or evidence, to the contrary, we must assume that Luke has
                    >introduced the changes to this source where he differs from it.

                    But for a Q proponent, as I understand you to be, it is building castles in
                    the air to suppose that we know how Q was written, so that therefore we
                    know how Luke changed it. The matter of how the LP was framed in Q, while
                    the object of formidable scholarship, is still conjectural, especially
                    since the IQP often seems to lean to Luke rather than Matthew in its
                    reconstruction.

                    >It is not that the alternative CANNOT be the case, but that Lukan
                    >alteration is the
                    >simplest and most elegant explanation -- again, barring any evidence or
                    >argument to the contrary.

                    It is, if we agree that the wording of Q lacked Luke's frame. But I am
                    concerned that there may be something akin to question-begging here.

                    >I see no such evidence for the Lord's prayer, nor
                    >have heard any argument from you about why Luke must have had a source other
                    >than Q (or Matthew).

                    "Must" is stronger than I meant. "May" is what I had in mind. If the Lukan
                    frame can be shown to be in line with known Lukan editorial tendencies,
                    then the likelihood of Lukan authorial creativity rises. But if the frame
                    seems independent of those tendencies, then the likelihood of an unknown
                    Lukan source rises.

                    >So it seems that with this text -- and only with this
                    >text -- we'll have to assume Luke introduced the changes. Unless one can
                    >show otherwise.

                    It is one thing to assert that Luke introduced the changes. It is another
                    to allege that the changes were not based on other sources, and were merely
                    authorial creation.

                    >It would be a total misrepresentation of my argument here,
                    >however, to claim that I am suggesting that Luke had no other sources,
                    >period.

                    I am relieved <g>.

                    >By my reading (i.e., as a Q proponent), he must have had at least three.
                    >At least.

                    i.e., Q, Mark, and Special Luke?

                    >But not three different sources for this single pericope!

                    Two would be quite sufficient <g>


                    > >Furthermore, it has been obvious for a long time that Matthew's SOTM is a
                    > >compilation of sayings scattered in time and space, stripped of their
                    > >original narrative frame, so how can you be so sure that it is Luke who
                    > >adds, rather than Matthew who subtracts?
                    >
                    >Because if Luke is literarily dependent on Matthew, then he is dependent on
                    >the SOTM in its Matthean form, whether that form is secondary or not.

                    I had in mind Q here. Why is the IQP so sure that it is Luke who added,
                    rather than Matthew who subtracted?


                    >... It is of course possible that material unique to Luke -- oral
                    >or written -- has overlapped with material derived from other sources and
                    >has influenced Luke's redaction of those sources -- there are, in my view,
                    >several instances of Mark-Q overlap, for example. BUT: 1) those overlaps
                    >must be demonstrated, not posited in the absence of evidence; and 2) EVEN if
                    >such sources existed, why assume that THEY are any more historically
                    >"authentic" than Luke is? In other words, even if Luke didn't himself invent
                    >this interlocutor (which he surely did!), there's no reason to assume this
                    >narrative is authentic.

                    Well, I do not presume to have demonstrated anything; I just raised the
                    question. And regardless of the sources (or lack thereof), why this
                    *particular* Lukan frame?

                    >But Luke did invent this narrative frame.

                    Well, that may be "fact" to you, but not to me.


                    > >This is a reasonable framing, especially if one dates Luke late, since by
                    > >then the issue of a corporate identity (18th Benediction or not) different
                    > >from Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah would have been
                    > >more pressing. The issue then would not be, as I asked, one of attitude or
                    > >method, but one of corporate identity.
                    >
                    >Precisely! And in fact, I would think this explanation would serve even in
                    >the extremely unlikely event that the episode actually happened. But you're
                    >right -- it works better in Luke's historical context than elsewhere. This
                    >is yet another indication, I would think, that the whole framing is a Lukan
                    >creation.

                    Perhaps. But we're still left with the question of the purpose of Luke's
                    frame. The group identity issue serves this purpose, as previously
                    discussed. But does that argument rise above mere plausibility?


                    > >Despite the [unnecessary, in my view] scolding, it is good to hear from you
                    > >again <g>.
                    >
                    >Likewise.

                    Indeed. I have not had a good argument for a while, so I might be getting
                    rusty <g>.

                    >Great news about Hawaii, I would think. Did I hear/read that
                    >right?

                    Yep.

                    Bob


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joseph Weaks
                    ... You are, of course, positively correct. I shouldn t have been so hyperbolic. There are some tidbits to be gleaned even from such throw away intros. For
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 25, 2004
                      On Jul 25, 2004, at 10:44 PM, William Arnal wrote:
                      >> I would argue that the introduction to the Lord's Prayer in Luke has
                      >> significance exactly equal to zero... It's just filler, a segue
                      >> (and not a very smooth one, as was noted).
                      >
                      > In terms of Lukan style, this is eminently plausible... I would argue,
                      > though,
                      > that even if the point of all of these (and other)
                      > Lukan narrative transitions is really just to serve as narrative
                      > transitions, it is in some cases clear that Luke had something in mind
                      > --
                      > that he framed things one way, as opposed to another way, for some
                      > sort of
                      > reason.
                      ...
                      > In short, I do think you're right that the main point of Luke 11:1 is
                      > precisely
                      > to introduce the specific sayings material on prayer, and not much
                      > else. But
                      > there is still, in the specific framing Luke gives it, some trace of
                      > Luke's
                      > own concerns, e.g., classically, with prayer; but also, I would say,
                      > with
                      > "sectarian" identity, manifested here in the reference to John's
                      > disciples.

                      You are, of course, positively correct. I shouldn't have been so
                      hyperbolic. There are some tidbits to be gleaned even from such "throw
                      away" intros. For instance, the mention of J the B might offer some
                      hint regarding competing traditions known in 80 CE.

                      Cheers,
                      Joe

                      **************************************************************
                      Rev. Joseph A. Weaks
                      Senior Minister, Bethany Christian Church, Dallas
                      Ph.D. (Cand.), Brite Divinity School, Ft. Worth
                      j.weaks@...
                      **************************************************************
                    • Ron Price
                      ... Bob, Good point. If you want to see the original context of the LP in a reconstruction of the original sayings source which is based more on Matthew than
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 26, 2004
                        Bob Schacht wrote:

                        > The matter of how the LP was framed in Q, while
                        > the object of formidable scholarship, is still conjectural, especially
                        > since the IQP often seems to lean to Luke rather than Matthew in its
                        > reconstruction.

                        Bob,

                        Good point. If you want to see the original context of the LP in a
                        reconstruction of the original sayings source which is based more on Matthew
                        than on Luke, see the saying "C1" on the following page:

                        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_sQet.html

                        Ron Price

                        Derbyshire, UK
                      • Mark Preece
                        ... [...] ... Might not Luke have intended us to imagine motivations for his characters, whether of not the individuals actually existed in history? After all,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 26, 2004
                          At 08:11 PM 7/25/2004, William Arnal wrote:
                          >What do you mean, what did he [the disciple] mean? Have we now sunk to
                          >tossing over 100 years of scholarship out the window, so that we can revert
                          >to naive speculations about the personal motivations of "individuals" whose
                          >existence we only know of through texts?
                          [...]
                          > And so the question becomes, NOT What did
                          >Jesus' interlocutor intend? but What did the author of Luke intend by the
                          >question? There's no "perhaps" about it.

                          Might not Luke have intended us to imagine motivations for his characters,
                          whether of not the individuals actually existed in history? After all, he's
                          just had a dialogue between Jesus and a lawyer in which the (possibly
                          non-existent) lawyer has tried to "test" Jesus and to "justify" himself.
                          Plenty of motivation ascribed to a fictional character there. I don't think
                          the original question about what the disciples intended needs to imply that
                          we're throwing away 100 years of scholarship, it just has to be understood
                          as implying "within the context of Luke's narrative."

                          Peace,

                          Mark.
                        • Ken Olson
                          ... pray, which is what the petitioner had in mind that prompted the question? I suspect that J the B was as much concerned about attitude and method as he was
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 26, 2004
                            On July 25, 2004, Bob Schacht asked:

                            >>First, what do we know about what John taught his disciples about how to
                            pray, which is what the petitioner had in mind that prompted the question?
                            I suspect that J the B was as much concerned about attitude and method as
                            he was by precise words. When he called for repentance, was that meant to
                            be an act of prayer, or a social act of some kind (e.g., making amends)?<<

                            Bob,

                            I would approach this question in terms of Luke's general attitude towards
                            the form of Judaism claiming John as its founder and its relationship to
                            Luke's own form of Christianity. The two puzzling passages in Acts
                            18.24-28, 19.1-7 suggest to me that the two groups were in some sense parts
                            of a larger movement within Judaism and that Luke was concerned to bring
                            "Johannine Christianity" (to borrow Conzelmann's term) into conformity with
                            what he regarded as normative Christianity. The use of a specific prayer in
                            Lk. 11.1-4, like baptism in the Holy Spirit in Acts 19, may have been part
                            of this process. So I would agree with William Arnal that Luke's concern in
                            the introduction to the LP has to do with constructing a sectarian identity.

                            Best Wishes,

                            Ken

                            kaolson@...
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