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Herod Antipas

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  • Jim West
    Mark Goodacre has a nice bit on his blog today about the rather effeminate portrayal of Herod in Gibson s film. I m wondering if there is anything in the
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2004
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      Mark Goodacre has a nice bit on his blog today about the rather effeminate
      portrayal of Herod in Gibson's film. I'm wondering if there is anything in
      the sources about this?

      Thanks

      Jim

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Dr Jim West
      Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
      http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com -- Biblical Theology Weblog
      http://petrosbaptist.blogspot.com -- Petros Baptist Weblog
    • Bob Webb
      Jim, It would seem that this is one of the many places where the influence of Anne Catharine Emmerich can be seen in the movie. In chapter 20, Jesus before
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1, 2004
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        Jim,

        It would seem that this is one of the many places where the influence of
        Anne Catharine Emmerich can be seen in the movie. In chapter 20, "Jesus
        before Herod" (p.125 in my ed.) Herod is described as "the luxurious and
        effeminate prince...". So an interesting question arises: what possibly
        influenced Emmerich in this portrayal?

        The discussion on Mark's NT Gateway weblog cites Gundry's review where he
        alludes to the feminine form "vixen" in the Greek word for "fox" in Jesus'
        saying about Herod being a fox. While intriguing, I find this a little far
        fetched to see this as the source for Gibson's portrayal.

        Bob Webb.


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Jim West [mailto:jwest@...]
        > Sent: Saturday, May 1, 2004 12:13 PM
        > To: biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [XTalk] Herod Antipas
        >
        >
        > Mark Goodacre has a nice bit on his blog today about the
        > rather effeminate portrayal of Herod in Gibson's film. I'm
        > wondering if there is anything in the sources about this?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Jim
        >
        > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        > Dr Jim West
        > Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
        > http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com > -- Biblical Theology
        > Weblog http://petrosbaptist.blogspot.com -- Petros Baptist Weblog
        >
        >
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      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Jim West To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:13 AM
        Message 3 of 8 , May 1, 2004
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jim West" <jwest@...>
          To: <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:13 AM
          Subject: [XTalk] Herod Antipas


          > Mark Goodacre has a nice bit on his blog today about the rather effeminate
          > portrayal of Herod in Gibson's film. I'm wondering if there is anything
          in
          > the sources about this?
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Jim

          Only the imagination/visions/hallucinations of a nutty 18th century
          Augustinian nun...to quote "and from the mud and missiles which the rabble
          had flung at his head, the luxurious and effeminate prince turned away in
          disgust,...."

          JK
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Bob Webb To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:48 AM Subject: RE: [XTalk] Herod Antipas ... Her
          Message 4 of 8 , May 1, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Bob Webb" <webb.bob@...>
            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:48 AM
            Subject: RE: [XTalk] Herod Antipas


            > Jim,
            >
            > It would seem that this is one of the many places where the influence of
            > Anne Catharine Emmerich can be seen in the movie. In chapter 20, "Jesus
            > before Herod" (p.125 in my ed.) Herod is described as "the luxurious and
            > effeminate prince...". So an interesting question arises: what possibly
            > influenced Emmerich in this portrayal?


            Her visions and hallucinations which were written down by Klemens Maria
            Brentano who spent 6 years at the ailing nun's bedside and then published
            them when she died. Dolorous Passion and the other works are probably
            Brentano's editing.

            JK
          • Mark Goodacre
            ... What about Matt. 11.7-8 // Luke 7.24-25? What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 7:25 What did you go out to see? A
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2, 2004
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              On 1 May 2004 at 12:13, Jim West wrote:

              > Mark Goodacre has a nice bit on his blog today about the rather
              > effeminate portrayal of Herod in Gibson's film. I'm wondering if
              > there is anything in the sources about this?

              What about Matt. 11.7-8 // Luke 7.24-25? ""What did you go out into
              the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 7:25 What did you
              go out to see? A man dressed in fancy clothes? Look, those who wear
              fancy clothes and live in luxury are in kings' courts!" Theissen
              argues that this is a reference to Herod Antipas, who had reeds on
              his coins and who, of course, is the obvious contender for someone
              who lives royal luxury when one is speaking to a bunch of Galileans
              about John the Baptist. Could the "reed shaken by the wind" also be
              a clever play on a spineless, unmanly character, unable to stand up
              to his wife when she demands something of him? Mark 6.14-29 depicts
              Herod Antipas as contemptible by ancient standards, a man who, like
              Ahab to Jezebel, is swayed by the manipulations of his domineering
              wife.

              Mark
              -----------------------------
              Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
              Graduate Institute for Theology & Religion
              Dept of Theology
              University of Birmingham
              Elmfield House, Bristol Road tel.+44 121 414 7512
              Birmingham B29 6LQ UK fax: +44 121 415 8376

              http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
              http://NTGateway.com
            • Jim West
              ... Is the reed imagery used in other Greek literature to describe a person of effeminate character? Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr Jim West Pastor,
              Message 6 of 8 , May 2, 2004
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                At 07:03 PM 5/2/04 +0100, you wrote:

                >What about Matt. 11.7-8 // Luke 7.24-25? ""What did you go out into
                >the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 7:25 What did you
                >go out to see? A man dressed in fancy clothes? Look, those who wear
                >fancy clothes and live in luxury are in kings' courts!" Theissen
                >argues that this is a reference to Herod Antipas, who had reeds on
                >his coins and who, of course, is the obvious contender for someone
                >who lives royal luxury when one is speaking to a bunch of Galileans
                >about John the Baptist. Could the "reed shaken by the wind" also be
                >a clever play on a spineless, unmanly character, unable to stand up
                >to his wife when she demands something of him?

                Is the "reed" imagery used in other Greek literature to describe a person of
                effeminate character?

                Jim

                +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                Dr Jim West
                Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
                http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com -- Biblical Theology Weblog
                http://petrosbaptist.blogspot.com -- Petros Baptist Weblog
              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: Jim West To: Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Herod Antipas ... of ... I
                Message 7 of 8 , May 2, 2004
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jim West" <jwest@...>
                  To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 1:33 PM
                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] Herod Antipas


                  > At 07:03 PM 5/2/04 +0100, you wrote:
                  >
                  > >What about Matt. 11.7-8 // Luke 7.24-25? ""What did you go out into
                  > >the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 7:25 What did you
                  > >go out to see? A man dressed in fancy clothes? Look, those who wear
                  > >fancy clothes and live in luxury are in kings' courts!" Theissen
                  > >argues that this is a reference to Herod Antipas, who had reeds on
                  > >his coins and who, of course, is the obvious contender for someone
                  > >who lives royal luxury when one is speaking to a bunch of Galileans
                  > >about John the Baptist. Could the "reed shaken by the wind" also be
                  > >a clever play on a spineless, unmanly character, unable to stand up
                  > >to his wife when she demands something of him?
                  >
                  > Is the "reed" imagery used in other Greek literature to describe a person
                  of
                  > effeminate character?


                  I think the effeminacy of Herod Antipas is strictly out of the nun's
                  hallucinations which form a great bulk of Gibson's movie.

                  Jack Kilmon
                  San Marcos, TX
                • Linda & Ernest Pennells
                  His mother was a Samaritan. His father s forebears were Idumaean, and opinions differed as to how many generations must pass before the descendants of a
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 6, 2004
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                    His mother was a Samaritan. His father's forebears were Idumaean, and
                    opinions differed as to how many generations must pass before the
                    descendants of a convert became proper Jews. What does that make Antipas?

                    He played second fiddle to Archelaus when it came to divvying up the
                    territory. His marriage to a royal niece, who had the audacity to divorce
                    his brother before contracting another dubious marriage and insisted she be
                    his one and only wife, provoked a war.

                    None of this proves him effeminate, but does set him up as the butt of
                    caustic humour, and malicious gossip: Drunkenness may have been routine
                    for a man educated in Rome. Succumbing to the allures of his young wife's
                    even younger daughter. Presenting her with JBap's head on a platter.
                    Thinking Jesus might be JBap redivivus. Asking for a stunt miracle at
                    Jesus' arraignment. He fell out with Pilate as well as Aretas.

                    How does this stack up against the reputation of your regular wannabe
                    monarch of the era?

                    Regards,

                    Ernie Pennells
                    220 - 50 Songhees Road, Victoria BC, Canada V9A 7J4
                    http://www.lukeacts.com
                    Tel: (250) 381 5674
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