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Re: [XTalk] early evidence of Passion responsibility

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  • Mike Grondin
    ... In an earlier note, I responded to the second part of your message, Steve. Here, I ll respond to the first part. The above analysis is, I think, pretty
    Message 1 of 77 , Apr 1, 2004
      --- Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
      > I'm not sure what I'm being asked about, but I'd like to
      > point out that I thought that the Ancient Evidence series
      > on the Discovery Channel (hosted by Avery Brooks) had an
      > interesting take on the death of Jesus. They concluded
      > that three men killed Jesus: Pontius Pilate, Caiaphas, and
      > Jesus himself. All were necessary, but by himself each
      > was insufficient.

      In an earlier note, I responded to the second part of your message,
      Steve. Here, I'll respond to the first part. The above analysis is,
      I think, pretty much the right way to look at things - in terms of
      individual responsibility. The way Rikk puts it (as indeed some of
      the sources put it) invokes the notion of collective responsibility,
      which shouldn't be tossed around lightly. In general, a collective
      can be tarred with the activities of its members only insofar as
      those activities reflect the majority will of the entire collective
      - and then only during that time period within which this is true.
      As antidote to the collective tarring implied by Rikk's formulations
      of the question, consider the Anne Frank case. Why do we not there
      speak of "Dutch responsibility"? Is it because:

      "Anne's famous diary ... ended on August 4, 1944, when their hiding
      place was betrayed by a Dutch collaborator." (from AF website)

      We don't speak of "Dutch responsibility" because the actions of this
      collaborator are not attributable to the Dutch people as a whole -
      not even at that point in time. "Not attributable" because those
      actions didn't reflect the majority will of the collective.

      Why then do we speak of "Jewish responsibility"? Even if we correct
      that phrase to read more properly as "Judean responsibility", it
      flies in the face of gospel evidence, for those who care about it.
      The temple leadership is consistently presented as being afraid of
      popular reaction - which implies that they had reason to be. Jesus
      attracts a lot of attention, takes refuge in crowds, is arrested at
      night, etc. Only when they're able to stack an audience - as before
      Pilate - does the popular will _of that audience_ support the Temple
      leaders. The gospels themselves, then, essentially deny collective
      responsibility for the Judean people at large. Regardless of what
      later Jewish writings imply, it wasn't the Judeans in general
      (still less "the Jews") that bore the legal/moral responsibility,
      but rather the Temple leadership under Caiaphas. Whether he was a
      powerless innocent or a quisling collaborator is up for grabs, but
      in neither case does his action entail _collective_ "Jewish
      responsibility".

      Mike Grondin
      Mt. Clemens, MI
    • Mike Grondin
      ... No. What I was thinking of was a note I seem to recall wherein Gordon dismissed the Jewish evidence with little explanation. That you ve chatted hardly at
      Message 77 of 77 , Apr 4, 2004
        --- Rikk Watts wrote:
        > (not sure I've been chattin' with Gordon .. do you mean Steve?)..

        No. What I was thinking of was a note I seem to recall wherein
        Gordon dismissed the Jewish evidence with little explanation. That
        you've chatted hardly at all with the main target of your argument I
        find rather ironic - and somewhat frustrating as well. I would like
        to have seen a more robust defense from Gordon than what he offered.
        But you also have had several opportunities to respond to relevant
        portions of Gordon's notes to others, and haven't done so.

        Mike Grondin
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