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Messianic expectations

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  • Bob Schacht
    We had a relatively enduring thread on XTalk a while back about whether or not Jesus thought he was the messiah, and if not, who thought he was, and ... Has
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 1, 2004
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      We had a relatively enduring thread on XTalk a while back about whether or
      not Jesus thought he was the messiah, and if not, who thought he was, and
      if so, what kind of messiah. Well, just now I've run across the following:

      >Oegema, Gerbern S Anointed and His People: Messianic Expectation from the
      >Maccabees to Bar Kochba Hardcover $115.00 $36.99 Order: www.dovebook.com
      >In this systematic and radical work, Oegema studies the origins and
      >development of expectations of a messiah-royal, priestly or prophetic. In
      >five parts, all the Jewish and Christian literature from 200 BCE to 200 CE
      >is analysed for its messianic interests. Special attention is devoted to
      >the Pseudepigrapha, the Qumran literature, Philo, Josephus, the writings
      >of the Early Church, the Jewish Apocalypses and the early Rabbinic
      >writings. In this important work, Oegema contends that we cannot speak of
      >a 'messianic idea' in Judaism, but that we can trace a historical
      >trajectory of messianic expectations.

      Has anyone on this list examined this book? If so, can you summarize
      Oegema's conclusions relevant to our interest in Jesus' self-image and
      Peter's "Confession"? Also, the above summary fails to mention the
      publication date, so I don't even know if this is a new book, or an old one
      that is being remaindered.

      Bob
      Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
      Northern Arizona University
      Flagstaff, AZ

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim West
      ... It was published in 1998. There s no review of it at bookreviews.org Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr Jim West Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 1, 2004
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        At 11:21 AM 3/1/04 -0700, you wrote:
        >
        >Has anyone on this list examined this book? If so, can you summarize
        >Oegema's conclusions relevant to our interest in Jesus' self-image and
        >Peter's "Confession"? Also, the above summary fails to mention the
        >publication date, so I don't even know if this is a new book, or an old one
        >that is being remaindered.

        It was published in 1998. There's no review of it at bookreviews.org

        Jim

        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Dr Jim West
        Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
        http://biblical-studies.org -- Biblical Studies Resources
        http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com -- Biblical Studies Resources Weblog


        "The way many young theologues are dissociating themselves from the church
        is highly displeasing to me. It is also utterly unrealistic". Gerhard von Rad
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Bob, the book s not so old -- it came out only about ... from the Maccabees to Bar Kochba, Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha Supplement Series - JSPS
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 1, 2004
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          Bob, the book's not so old -- it came out only about
          six years ago:

          >The Anointed and His People: Messianic Expectations
          from the Maccabees to Bar Kochba, Journal for the
          Study of the Pseudepigrapha Supplement Series - JSPS
          27, by Gerbern S. Oegema, Sheffield Academic Press,
          1998.<

          That's all that I could find on it. No online reviews
          so far as a quick google search could turn up.

          Jeffery Hodges

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        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Also, in his _Christ and the Caesars_, Satuffer conjectured that Jesus entry into Jerusalem followed immediately after Pilate had made his grand entrance.
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 18, 2004
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            Linda & Ernest Pennells wrote:

            > [Zeba Crook]
            > > don't mean to sound glib, but is it not likely that entering Jerusalem
            > >on a donkey is how most people entered the city? How many other options
            > >were there?
            >
            > Anthony Harvey (Constraints of History) makes a big deal of this: "The
            > kernel of historical fact within the fairly elaborate layers of
            > interpretation ... is Jesus startling and ostentatious reversal of the
            > normal constraint which would have obliged him to enter Jerusalem on foot"
            > (Harvey 1982, 129).

            Also, in his _Christ and the Caesars_, Satuffer conjectured that Jesus' entry into
            Jerusalem followed immediately after Pilate had made his grand entrance. If this
            is so, then Jesus' method of entry takes on a whole new signification.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...
          • Zeba Crook
            ... additional quotes that were from before the rabbinic period (we will consider Saadia Goan as the first reference of the rabbinic period.) Dear Steven, I
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 19, 2004
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              Steven wrote:
              >Anyway, for now, I will just augment my earlier post with a few of the
              additional quotes that were from before the rabbinic period (we will
              consider Saadia Goan as the first reference of the rabbinic period.)>

              Dear Steven,

              I realy appreciate seeing these references. Rabbinics is not my forte,
              so could explain to me: how do we know that these Talmudic references
              are first century or before?

              I accept your suggestion that post-Christianity Judaism may have felt
              the need to respond to Christian claims about their Messiah. On the
              other hand, I would tend to be more generous to the Christian scholarly
              attempt to distinguish between first-century Judaism and Christianity:
              it's neither "mythicist" nor "anti-missionary" propaganda that seeks to
              differentiate them. Rather it is based on the correction of a
              long-standing traditional view that "the Jews" are to be faulted (as
              willfully ignorant, or something like that) for not recognising the
              very Messiah they were all waiting for and rejecting (and killing) him
              instead. Post-Holocaust work has recognised that in fact, it's
              entirely logical that the majority of Jews, being well familiar with
              their own scriptures, were not convinced by the "scriptural proofs"
              being offered by the members of the Jesus movement. In other words, it
              is (and remains) anything but obvious that Jesus was a reasonable
              likeness to any of the various messiahs Jews were hoping would come (I
              think *expecting* is even putting it too strongly), and your claim
              notwithstanding, the all the sources do not all make the same claim.
              It is obvious, and I easily grant, that these things are all obvious to
              believers (then *and* now), but that is another issue altogether.

              I'm leaving shortly for AAR-SBL, so likely won't see a response to this
              until the middle of next week.

              Cheers,

              Zeb

              -----------------------------
              Z.A. Crook
              Assistant Professor, Religion
              Carleton University
              1125 Colonel By Drive
              Ottawa, ON, K1S 5B6
              613-520-2600, ext. 2276
              www.carleton.ca/~zcrook
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