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Re: [XTalk] Re: Temple tax evasion!

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Hi Ernie, ... I can only guess, of course:)! I d like to have a chat with Mark about his choices and selections for story creation! It is my view that
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 26, 2004
      Hi Ernie,

      >[Gordon]
      >>I think what we actually have from HJ and friends in the 20's is a
      >collection of parables
      >and aphorisms. I think some of the story telling contains rememberance of
      >days/ events (but just a bit!).<
      >
      >My question then becomes, why did a story (fact or fiction) about toppling
      >a table for trading Tyrian shekels establish a prominent place in tradition
      >(conceding my point that it is not firmly bound to prophecies of
      >destruction)?

      I can only guess, of course:)! I'd like to have a chat with "Mark" about
      his choices and selections for story creation! It is my view that after
      Jesus' death his friends and followers searched the ancestral stories to
      reflect upon what Jesus had been up to and to lay claim to that heritage in
      light of that and the loss of their leader. In general, of course, the
      classical prophets were great ones for "dramatic demonstrations" and Jesus
      is cast as doing a whole number of these and outdoing the prophets who had
      gone before. The P.N. is a great drama! Already Jesus has done a whole
      series of dramatic acts and this one suits the drama and is drawn from
      reflections on Jeremiah (a fellow known for his Jeremiads:)!). What
      interests me in this passage, though is verse 18: "And when the chief
      priests and scribes heard it, they kept looking for a way to kill him; for
      they were afraid of him, because **the whole crowd was spellbound by his
      teaching.** (**emphasis** mine). Tis the teaching that's the big deal
      according to Mark and I think this is historically the key to what actually
      led to Jesus' demise. But the story neatly goes on that Jesus waltzes on
      out of town and comes back several more days! Historically this is just
      plain silly! (Want to try it out? Go to your bank, jump the counter, turn
      over all the coin trays and see how long it takes for the cops to catch up
      with you;)!) Surely at Passover when throngs were in Jerusalem a very
      healthy contingent of armed guards were right by those boxes of coins! They
      would have nabbed Jesus in a heartbeat or even if he was a sneaky fellow...
      get him quickly! But in the story he lingers and quotes imflamatory
      scripture from imflamatory Jeremiah (who had been around the last time
      Jerusalem had some **really serious troubles;)!**) and saunters out of town!
      But then as drama of "a spellbinding one" this makes for really cool drama
      that accords with the sorts of things that concerned the ancestors. In the
      whole story Jesus fulfills **all** the key concerns regarding the covenant!
      >
      >The suggestion has been made that prophecies of destruction arise from
      >Stephen's martyrdom. No sign of an offending shekel in that episode - or
      >anywhere else other than the temple sequence, for that matter.
      >
      >Were the thirty pieces of silver Judas threw back at the priests also TS?

      According to tradition they were the shekels not the half shekels.

      >
      >Would I be guilty of getting carried away if I ask whether there is the
      >slightest possibility that this mint was in the temple catacombs? Temples
      >were used for safe storage of valuables. That would seem to embrace
      >precious metal and coin.

      I'm going to write David Hendin and ask him about the mint and will get back
      to the group.

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC
    • Linda & Ernest Pennells
      [Dave Hindley] ... the temple authority* unacceptable. ... it was not uncommon in the ANE for a king to handle the finances for an authorized temple
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 26, 2004
        [Dave Hindley]
        >The image of Marquart would, I fear, make the striking of the shekels *by
        the temple authority* unacceptable. ... it was not uncommon in the ANE for a
        king to handle the finances for an authorized temple<

        Herod was not reticent about images: he raised a Roman eagle over the main
        entrance to the temple, and burned alive those who challenged that. The
        Tyrian shekel was supposedly for sacred use. I am therefore prompted to ask
        whether there is archaeological or literary evidence for the precedent of a
        mint being located within temple precincts anywhere in ANE.

        [David Hendin]
        >there was a jerusalem mint probably in or near the citadel ... in maccabean
        times. the location of herod's mint is not known ... perhaps it was in
        jerusalem, perhaps it was near jerusalem.
        regarding the minting authority in jerusalem, there is no doubt that this
        authority was with herod.<

        Having recently deposed the Hasmoneans, installed an acceptable HP, and
        set about making this temple one of the architectural and engineering
        wonders of the world, who would Herod think this temple belonged to,
        anyway?

        [Gordon]
        >Historically this is just plain silly! (Want to try it out? ... see how
        long it takes for the cops to catch up with you;)!) Surely at Passover when
        throngs were in Jerusalem a very healthy contingent of armed guards were
        right by those boxes of coins!<

        The argument I put forward on this is embarrassment, based on Melkart's
        image. Jesus had a complaint they would not want to contest in court,
        which won support from the people. Add to that, innocence - he didn't steal
        any coins. This line of thought offers an explanation for delayed arrest.
        We see ample evidence on TV of variations in the policing "judgement call"
        about the point at which demonstrators should be arrested. A few days
        later they contrived to arrest Jesus away from the temple crowd.

        Regards,

        Ernie Pennells
        220 - 50 Songhees Road, Victoria BC V9A 7J4, Canada
        http://www.lukeacts.com
        Tel: 1-250-381 5674
      • Linda & Ernest Pennells
        [Dave Hindley] ... the temple authority* unacceptable. ... it was not uncommon in the ANE for a king to handle the finances for an authorized temple
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 26, 2004
          [Dave Hindley]
          >The image of Marquart would, I fear, make the striking of the shekels *by
          the temple authority* unacceptable. ... it was not uncommon in the ANE for a
          king to handle the finances for an authorized temple<

          Herod was not reticent about images: he raised a Roman eagle over the main
          entrance to the temple, and burned alive those who challenged that. The
          Tyrian shekel was supposedly for sacred use. I am therefore prompted to ask
          whether there is archaeological or literary evidence for the precedent of a
          mint being located within temple precincts anywhere in ANE.

          [David Hendin]
          >there was a jerusalem mint probably in or near the citadel ... in maccabean
          times. the location of herod's mint is not known ... perhaps it was in
          jerusalem, perhaps it was near jerusalem.
          regarding the minting authority in jerusalem, there is no doubt that this
          authority was with herod.<

          Having recently deposed the Hasmoneans, installed an acceptable HP, and
          set about making this temple one of the architectural and engineering
          wonders of the world, who would Herod think this temple belonged to,
          anyway?

          [Gordon]
          >Historically this is just plain silly! (Want to try it out? ... see how
          long it takes for the cops to catch up with you;)!) Surely at Passover when
          throngs were in Jerusalem a very healthy contingent of armed guards were
          right by those boxes of coins!<

          The argument I put forward on this is embarrassment, based on Melkart's
          image. Jesus had a complaint they would not want to contest in court,
          which won support from the people. Add to that, innocence - he didn't steal
          any coins. This line of thought offers an explanation for delayed arrest.
          We see ample evidence on TV of variations in the policing "judgement call"
          about the point at which demonstrators should be arrested. A few days
          later they contrived to arrest Jesus away from the temple crowd.

          Regards,

          Ernie Pennells
          220 - 50 Songhees Road, Victoria BC V9A 7J4, Canada
          http://www.lukeacts.com
          Tel: 1-250-381 5674
        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi Ernie, ... I seriously doubt this is how the guards stationed near those tables would react. But again, I simply do not think any such thing happened.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 26, 2004
            Hi Ernie,
            >
            >[Gordon]
            >>Historically this is just plain silly! (Want to try it out? ... see how
            >long it takes for the cops to catch up with you;)!) Surely at Passover when
            >throngs were in Jerusalem a very healthy contingent of armed guards were
            >right by those boxes of coins!<
            >
            >The argument I put forward on this is embarrassment, based on Melkart's
            >image. Jesus had a complaint they would not want to contest in court,
            >which won support from the people. Add to that, innocence - he didn't steal
            >any coins. This line of thought offers an explanation for delayed arrest.
            >We see ample evidence on TV of variations in the policing "judgement call"
            >about the point at which demonstrators should be arrested. A few days
            >later they contrived to arrest Jesus away from the temple crowd.

            I seriously doubt this is how the guards stationed near those tables would
            react. But again, I simply do not think any such thing happened.

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
          • Linda & Ernest Pennells
            Thanks to all for a helpful and stimulating discussion, which leaves me ... evidence for the precedent of a mint being located within temple precincts
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
              Thanks to all for a helpful and stimulating discussion, which leaves me
              with one dangling thread:

              >I am therefore prompted to ask whether there is archaeological or literary
              evidence for the precedent of a mint being located within temple precincts
              anywhere in ANE.<

              I would appreciate any clues about where to find this needle of information
              in the literature haystack.

              Regards,

              Ernie Pennells
              220 - 50 Songhees Road, Victoria BC V9A 7J4, Canada
              http://www.lukeacts.com
              Tel: 1-250-381 5674
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