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RE: [XTalk] Re: women beggars?

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  • Jim West
    Thank you Bob, this was very helpful! Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr Jim West Pastor, Petros Baptist Church http://biblical-studies.org -- Biblical
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 7, 2004
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      Thank you Bob,
      this was very helpful!

      Jim

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Dr Jim West
      Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
      http://biblical-studies.org -- Biblical Studies Resources
      http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com --- Biblical Theology Weblog

      Bad exegesis is no less worse than bad conduct.
      Tertullian, On Purity
    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... Nice response, Bob, reminding us to avoid begging the question. Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 7, 2004
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        At 09:19 PM 1/6/04 -0700, Bob Schacht wrote:
        >In other words, I am suggesting that the answer to your question is to
        >question the assumptions you are making about "begging," and what it
        >consists of. To answer your question, we need a sociology of begging in
        >first Century Judea, Samaria, and Galilee.

        Nice response, Bob, reminding us to avoid "begging" the question.

        Stephen Carlson
        --
        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
        Weblog: http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/hypotyposeis/blogger.html
        "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
      • Davis, Robert C.
        Bob: Actually, I believe we have the beginnings, at least, of just such a sociology. The clue, however, to the existence and scope of begging is not to be
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 7, 2004
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          Bob:

          Actually, I believe we have the beginnings, at least, of just such a sociology. The clue, however, to the existence and scope of begging is not to be found in the word "beggar," but rather in the word "gate."

          It was at the gate of a city that beggars were known to gather, for the simple reason that this was the place where alms could most effectively be found. There are references in the Old Testament (cf. Amos, for example), which refer to the "needy at the gate" and also to "the afflicted at the gate." These form the foundation within which to understand the situation of the man born blind--he was simply one more beggar at the gate.

          There has also been delineated a group of people known as "the mutilated" who were not eligible to enter into "polite society" or into the Temple. These were people with lost limbs, the blind, deaf, and mute, etc.--which could be either male or female. Additionally, a separate--and even lower--group has been identified, known as "sinners and outcasts," which included lepers and others known to be severely contagious. These, too, could be both men and women.

          In neither case could the women among these groups make use of the "remedy" of prostitution, debt slavery, or other such. They were quite literally "dead" to their communities--perhaps even more so for the expedient of having been born female. But these, too, had to eat, and thus had to depend on the compassion of almsgivers who passed them by at the city gate, where they sat, somewhat in the way, awaiting what coins as might be thrown their way.

          One potential difference, however, might have existed between men and women in these categories: it still might have been more acceptable for the men to plead for alms than the women. If this is so, then the women were, again, at the bottom of the beggarly "pecking order" whose only recourse was to sit in silent proximity to the other beggars and hope that something might be tossed their way.

          By the way, one might wish to add Luke's story of Lazarus and the rich man to the list, insofar as, although a parable, it was drawn from common experience readily known by both Jesus and his hearers--or at least by the author as observer of such circumstances in his/her own right.

          Koester did some good early work on much of this, later followed by Theissen.

          Best wishes,

          Robert Davis
          Pikeville College



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tobias Hägerland
          ... take it ... disciples ... a blind ... beggar ... ask for ... verse ... out and ... loudly, ... In addition, of course, Acts 3:1-10 should be noted as the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 14, 2004
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            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Bob Schacht <bobschacht@i...>
            wrote:

            > Let's start by being more precise with the lexical categories. I
            take it
            > that you have in mind two NT passages:
            >
            > NRS Mark 10:46//Luke 18:35 They came to Jericho. As he and his
            disciples
            > and a large crowd were leaving Jericho, Bartimaeus son of Timaeus,
            a blind
            > beggar, was sitting by the roadside.
            >
            > NRS John 9:8 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a
            beggar
            > began to ask, "Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?"
            >
            > The Greek words in question are based on prosaiteo, meaning 1) to
            ask for
            > in addition 2) to approach one with supplications 3) to ask
            > alms (according to my old copy of BibleWorks). If we follow the
            verse
            > about Blind Bartimaeus to the sequel, we read,
            > 47 When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout
            out and
            > say, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"
            > 48 Many sternly ordered him to be quiet, but he cried out even more
            loudly,
            > "Son of David, have mercy on me!"
            >
            > In this case he was begging-- but not in the sense you meant.
            >


            In addition, of course, Acts 3:1-10 should be noted as the most
            detailed and vivid description of begging in the New Testament. From
            this passage we get the picture of a (male) beggar
            1. habitually sitting in the same place
            2. asking (aitein, erôtan) for alms
            3. the almsgiving normally consisting in a donation of 'silver or
            gold'
            Thus, quite similar to current practices.

            As far as women beggars are concerned, the proposals already made may
            hold true to some extent. References to beggars are not, after all,
            that frequent in the New Testament. In addition to those already
            mentioned - Bartimaeus in Mark, the man born blind in John, and
            the "chôlos" in Acts - we may add Lk 16:3, where the unjust
            steward
            mention begging as a shameful possible occupation for himself. This
            makes a total of four references to actual (within the narrative) or
            potential male beggars, which I do not think is enough to make the
            absence of women beggars especially striking.

            Tobias Hägerland, M.Th.
            Göteborg University
            Department of Religious Studies and Theology
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