Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Intertestamental Judaisms and their messiahs

Expand Messages
  • Rikk E. Watts
    HI Folks, It occurred to me that this might help: does anyone know of any intertestamental or first century Jewish document (or perhaps later) that explicitly
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 1, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      HI Folks,

      It occurred to me that this might help: does anyone know of any
      intertestamental or first century Jewish document (or perhaps later) that
      explicitly denies or repudiates the idea that IsraelĀ¹s restoration was
      linked to the coming of a Davidic Messiah?

      Regards
      Rikk

      Dr. Rikk E. Watts (Cantab) Ph. (604) 224 3245
      Associate Professor of NT Fax. (604) 224 3097
      Regent College
      5800 University Boulevard, Vancouver, V6T 2E4



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Rikk, The word explicitly stands out in your request, because it greatly reduces the possibilities. But the following come to mind that seem close: NRS
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 1, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        At 10:29 AM 12/1/2003 -0800, Rikk E. Watts wrote:
        >HI Folks,
        >
        >It occurred to me that this might help: does anyone know of any
        >intertestamental or first century Jewish document (or perhaps later) that
        >explicitly denies or repudiates the idea that IsraelĀ¹s restoration was
        >linked to the coming of a Davidic Messiah?
        >
        >Regards
        >Rikk

        Rikk,
        The word "explicitly" stands out in your request, because it greatly
        reduces the possibilities. But the following come to mind that seem close:

        NRS Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to
        be tempted by the devil....
        8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all
        the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;
        9 and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down
        and worship me."
        10 Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! for it is written, 'Worship
        the Lord your God, and serve only him.'"

        John 6:14 When the people saw the sign that he had done, they began to say,
        "This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world."
        15 When Jesus realized that they were about to come and take him by force
        to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

        Matthew 26:51 Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword,
        drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
        52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all
        who take the sword will perish by the sword.
        53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once
        send me more than twelve legions of angels?
        54 But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled, which say it must
        happen in this way?"

        In a sense, I think that the whole NT is a repudiation of the concept of a
        Davidic messiah-- but it is an oblique repudiation, not an explicit one.

        Perhaps it might be good to explore what you think is meant by a Davidic
        Messiah. What more is involved than (a) being of Davidic descent; (b) being
        anointed by a prophet; and (c) becoming king? And is not "king" meant in
        the traditional, political & military power sense, and not merely some
        metaphor, in order to satisfy the Jewish expectation of a Davidic Messiah?

        Bob



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Davis, Robert C.
        Bob: On the point of the Messiah being Davidic, I would have to disagree with your conclusion that the entire NT is an oblique repudiation of the Davidic
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 1, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Bob:

          On the point of the Messiah being Davidic, I would have to disagree with your conclusion that the entire NT is an oblique repudiation of the Davidic requirement. Instead, I would wish to suggest that it is basically affirmed in some cases, while held to be irrelevant in others.

          The difference is with the audiences, no so much the authors. As you and many have pointed out over the past few postings, Jews (whether Palestinian or Hellenistic-based) would have known and accepted the Davidic criteria for the Messiah, which is why such tortured ancestries are included in two of the gospels. Hellenistic Gentiles, on the other hand, could not have cared less--but this led not to a "repudiation" of the original idea as much as it did a shelving of it in certain circumstances. Later on, of course, (probably by the time of Luke), this was perhaps as much a holdover become tradition as anything else (recall that I date Luke to the second century!!!), but still it had survived the overwhelming "Gentilizing" of the movement as it crossed into a new century, which has to say something about its staying power among earlier Jewish-Christians.

          The larger point, of course, is whether Jesus ascribed to himself this Davidic standing. Here I continue to maintain that it was not necessary for him to do so in order to articulate the message most on his mind. And indeed, if I am correct in suggesting that it was the message, rather than any personal form of glory, that was on Jesus' mind, then his indulging in any such Davidic claims would have been a large tactical mistake.

          Still, we must also be honest and admit that we each are coming to whatever may be our conclusions on the basis of particular assumptions which are both prior and not always clear to our colleagues--but which are crucial for our own arguments to work out satisfactorily. And there is always the possibility that my (or your) assumptions could be wrong...

          But as they say, "you pay your money and you take your choice..." At least until more definitive evidence becomes available.

          All the best,

          Robert Davis





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.