Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] Re: origins of the doctrine of atonement

Expand Messages
  • Crispin Fletcher-Louis
    Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all, I ve come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the high priest in atonement. But may I offer a few
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all,
      I've come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the high
      priest in atonement. But may I offer a few observations:

      1. In response to Geoffrey's question, 'how come no one has suggested this
      high priestly context for atonement before?' I would suggest this is because
      the high priest has been ignored, period. (see my article at
      http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)

      2. Richard's ideas need now to be supplemented by a consideration of
      Margaret Barker's thesis that the goat 'lyhwh' on the Day of Atonement is a
      substitute for the high priest (who plays the role of YHWH) in the cultic
      drama. It is the blood of this goat that makes the atonement (in the
      pre-eminent act of atonement) as a substitute for the life (i.e. Death) of
      the high priest/yhwh. (See e.g. M. Barker, The Revelation of Jesus Christ
      (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 2000), 45 ...; M. Barker, The Great High Priest.
      The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy (London: T. & T. Clark, 2003), chapter
      3). In both books Barker has fascinating interpretative observations on a
      number of late second temple texts to support her thesis.

      3. For further texts relating the suffering of the high priesthood and the
      Day of Atonement - supportive of Barker's thesis, though not explicitly
      referring to atoning suffering, see C. H. T. Fletcher-Louis, "The Revelation
      of the Sacral Son of Man: The Genre, History of Religions Context and the
      Meaning of the Transfiguration," Auferstehung - Resurrection. The Fourth
      Durham-Tübingen-Symposium: Resurrection, Exaltation, and Transformation in
      Old Testament, Ancient Judaism, and Early Christianity (eds. F. Avemarie and
      H. Lichtenberger; WUNT 135; Tübingen: Mohr-Siebeck, 2001) 247-298 (pp.
      286-88).

      4. With regards to the Pauline language of putting off the old body and
      putting on the new one, that Liz quotes, this too might, in fact, be very
      adequately explained in terms of a (high) priestly background given the
      evidence from Philo that different priestly garments were identified with
      different physical/non-physical states. (Barker mounts an impressive case
      that here Philo attests mainstream Jewish thinking).

      Yours

      Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis


      Dept. of Theology,
      University of Nottingham,
      UK
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... This link doesn t seem to work. Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 jgibson000@comcast.net [Non-text
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Crispin Fletcher-Louis wrote:

        > Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all,
        > I've come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the
        > high
        > priest in atonement. But may I offer a few observations:
        >
        > 1. In response to Geoffrey's question, 'how come no one has
        > suggested this
        > high priestly context for atonement before?' I would suggest this is
        > because
        > the high priest has been ignored, period. (see my article at
        > http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)
        >

        This link doesn't seem to work.

        Jeffrey
        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Crispin Fletcher-Louis
        Geoffrey, ... Sorry about that. In that case, you¹ll have to go to http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/ And then scroll down the page until you get to ŒJesus and
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Geoffrey,

          >> http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)
          >>
          >
          > This link doesn't seem to work.
          >
          Sorry about that. In that case, you¹ll have to go to
          http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/
          And then scroll down the page until you get to ŒJesus and the High Priest
          (Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis)¹ under Theme 14.

          I hope that works.
          Crispin.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Thanks for this. I look forward to reading your paper. May I note, though, that one of my reasons for not seeing the death of the high priest, whether
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Crispin Fletcher-Louis wrote:

            > Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all,
            > I've come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the
            > high
            > priest in atonement. But may I offer a few observations:
            >
            > 1. In response to Geoffrey's question, 'how come no one has
            > suggested this
            > high priestly context for atonement before?' I would suggest this is
            > because
            > the high priest has been ignored, period. (see my article at
            > http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)
            >
            > 2. Richard's ideas need now to be supplemented by a consideration of
            > Margaret Barker's thesis that the goat 'lyhwh' on the Day of Atonement
            > is a
            > substitute for the high priest (who plays the role of YHWH) in the
            > cultic
            > drama. It is the blood of this goat that makes the atonement (in the
            > pre-eminent act of atonement) as a substitute for the life (i.e.
            > Death) of
            > the high priest/yhwh. (See e.g. M. Barker, The Revelation of Jesus
            > Christ
            > (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 2000), 45 ...; M. Barker, The Great High
            > Priest.
            > The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy (London: T. & T. Clark, 2003),
            > chapter
            > 3). In both books Barker has fascinating interpretative observations
            > on a
            > number of late second temple texts to support her thesis.

            Thanks for this. I look forward to reading your paper. May I note,
            though, that one of my reasons for not seeing the "death" of the high
            priest, whether on the Day of Atonement or not, as the origin of the
            belief in the atoning significance of Jesus is that the language used to
            describe the significance of Jesus death -- especially in Paul and in
            his "died for us/our sins" formula (the background of which is largely
            Greek) ---- has little in common with the imagery or the language
            surrounding the Temple cult and never seems to allude to the DoA..

            Perhaps you deal with this in your article?

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brian Trafford
            ... mula.pdf Hi Jeffrey Would it be possible for you to link this particular essay into the XTalk archives? Thank you, Brian Trafford Calgary, AB, Canada
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 13, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
              <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/files/Paul27sDyingFor
              mula.pdf

              Hi Jeffrey

              Would it be possible for you to link this particular essay into the
              XTalk archives?

              Thank you,

              Brian Trafford
              Calgary, AB, Canada
            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
              ... It s now at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/files/Paul%27sDyingFormula.pdf Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 13, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Brian Trafford wrote:

                > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                > <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/files/Paul27sDyingFor
                > mula.pdf
                >
                > Hi Jeffrey
                >
                > Would it be possible for you to link this particular essay into the
                > XTalk archives?
                >

                It's now at:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/files/Paul%27sDyingFormula.pdf

                Jeffrey

                --

                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                Chicago, IL 60626

                jgibson000@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.