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Re: [XTalk] Re: origins of the doctrine of atonement

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... Good quotes. Note though, that not one of the authorities you cite -- or who are cited by the authorities you cite -- sees the High priest as someone
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
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      "Richard H. Anderson" wrote:

      > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried"
      > <lizfried@u...> wrote:
      >
      > > Jesus' atoning death has more to do with Greek and Egyptian
      > mystery religions involving participation in the death and
      > resurrection of the dying and rising god. It has naught to do with
      > Judaism.
      >
      > Martin Hengel, Atonement: pp. 60-65. Esp. his conclusion on p.
      > 64: "As a result, after careful consideration of all the sources
      > indicated, we must agree with Jeremias and Lohse that the vicarious
      > atoning effect of the death or even the suffering of a righteous man
      > was not unknown in the Palestinian Judaism of the first century AD,
      > independently of the question of terminology."
      >
      > Psalm 34 states in verse 22
      > The LORD ransoms the life of his servants, *
      > and none will be punished who trust in him.
      >
      >
      > Joseph Bonsirven, Palestinian Judaism in the Time of Christ,
      > Translated from the French by William Wolf, At page 116 wrote: "The
      > doctrine of vicarious atonement through suffering, by death, and
      > especially by martyrdom, seems to have been generally accepted in
      > the Jewish world before Christ (2 Macc. 7:37; Sifre on Num.,
      > 25:13)."
      >

      Good quotes. Note though, that not one of the authorities you cite --
      or who are cited by the authorities you cite -- sees the High priest as
      someone whose death is atoning or finds anything within Judaism that
      points or attests to the particular theological topos that you would
      have us believe is the origin of the early Christian proclamations of
      Jesus' death as atoning.

      Again, how do you explain this?

      Yours,

      Jeffrey
      --

      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

      1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
      Chicago, IL 60626

      jgibson000@...



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    • Crispin Fletcher-Louis
      Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all, I ve come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the high priest in atonement. But may I offer a few
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
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        Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all,
        I've come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the high
        priest in atonement. But may I offer a few observations:

        1. In response to Geoffrey's question, 'how come no one has suggested this
        high priestly context for atonement before?' I would suggest this is because
        the high priest has been ignored, period. (see my article at
        http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)

        2. Richard's ideas need now to be supplemented by a consideration of
        Margaret Barker's thesis that the goat 'lyhwh' on the Day of Atonement is a
        substitute for the high priest (who plays the role of YHWH) in the cultic
        drama. It is the blood of this goat that makes the atonement (in the
        pre-eminent act of atonement) as a substitute for the life (i.e. Death) of
        the high priest/yhwh. (See e.g. M. Barker, The Revelation of Jesus Christ
        (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 2000), 45 ...; M. Barker, The Great High Priest.
        The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy (London: T. & T. Clark, 2003), chapter
        3). In both books Barker has fascinating interpretative observations on a
        number of late second temple texts to support her thesis.

        3. For further texts relating the suffering of the high priesthood and the
        Day of Atonement - supportive of Barker's thesis, though not explicitly
        referring to atoning suffering, see C. H. T. Fletcher-Louis, "The Revelation
        of the Sacral Son of Man: The Genre, History of Religions Context and the
        Meaning of the Transfiguration," Auferstehung - Resurrection. The Fourth
        Durham-Tübingen-Symposium: Resurrection, Exaltation, and Transformation in
        Old Testament, Ancient Judaism, and Early Christianity (eds. F. Avemarie and
        H. Lichtenberger; WUNT 135; Tübingen: Mohr-Siebeck, 2001) 247-298 (pp.
        286-88).

        4. With regards to the Pauline language of putting off the old body and
        putting on the new one, that Liz quotes, this too might, in fact, be very
        adequately explained in terms of a (high) priestly background given the
        evidence from Philo that different priestly garments were identified with
        different physical/non-physical states. (Barker mounts an impressive case
        that here Philo attests mainstream Jewish thinking).

        Yours

        Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis


        Dept. of Theology,
        University of Nottingham,
        UK
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... This link doesn t seem to work. Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1 Chicago, IL 60626 jgibson000@comcast.net [Non-text
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
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          Crispin Fletcher-Louis wrote:

          > Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all,
          > I've come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the
          > high
          > priest in atonement. But may I offer a few observations:
          >
          > 1. In response to Geoffrey's question, 'how come no one has
          > suggested this
          > high priestly context for atonement before?' I would suggest this is
          > because
          > the high priest has been ignored, period. (see my article at
          > http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)
          >

          This link doesn't seem to work.

          Jeffrey
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Crispin Fletcher-Louis
          Geoffrey, ... Sorry about that. In that case, you¹ll have to go to http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/ And then scroll down the page until you get to ŒJesus and
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
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            Geoffrey,

            >> http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)
            >>
            >
            > This link doesn't seem to work.
            >
            Sorry about that. In that case, you¹ll have to go to
            http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/
            And then scroll down the page until you get to ŒJesus and the High Priest
            (Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis)¹ under Theme 14.

            I hope that works.
            Crispin.



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          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Thanks for this. I look forward to reading your paper. May I note, though, that one of my reasons for not seeing the death of the high priest, whether
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 12, 2003
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              Crispin Fletcher-Louis wrote:

              > Richard, Geoffrey, Liz and all,
              > I've come in a little late to this fascinating discussion about the
              > high
              > priest in atonement. But may I offer a few observations:
              >
              > 1. In response to Geoffrey's question, 'how come no one has
              > suggested this
              > high priestly context for atonement before?' I would suggest this is
              > because
              > the high priest has been ignored, period. (see my article at
              > http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/jesus.pdf)
              >
              > 2. Richard's ideas need now to be supplemented by a consideration of
              > Margaret Barker's thesis that the goat 'lyhwh' on the Day of Atonement
              > is a
              > substitute for the high priest (who plays the role of YHWH) in the
              > cultic
              > drama. It is the blood of this goat that makes the atonement (in the
              > pre-eminent act of atonement) as a substitute for the life (i.e.
              > Death) of
              > the high priest/yhwh. (See e.g. M. Barker, The Revelation of Jesus
              > Christ
              > (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 2000), 45 ...; M. Barker, The Great High
              > Priest.
              > The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy (London: T. & T. Clark, 2003),
              > chapter
              > 3). In both books Barker has fascinating interpretative observations
              > on a
              > number of late second temple texts to support her thesis.

              Thanks for this. I look forward to reading your paper. May I note,
              though, that one of my reasons for not seeing the "death" of the high
              priest, whether on the Day of Atonement or not, as the origin of the
              belief in the atoning significance of Jesus is that the language used to
              describe the significance of Jesus death -- especially in Paul and in
              his "died for us/our sins" formula (the background of which is largely
              Greek) ---- has little in common with the imagery or the language
              surrounding the Temple cult and never seems to allude to the DoA..

              Perhaps you deal with this in your article?

              Yours,

              Jeffrey
              --

              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

              1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Chicago, IL 60626

              jgibson000@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brian Trafford
              ... mula.pdf Hi Jeffrey Would it be possible for you to link this particular essay into the XTalk archives? Thank you, Brian Trafford Calgary, AB, Canada
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 13, 2003
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                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/files/Paul27sDyingFor
                mula.pdf

                Hi Jeffrey

                Would it be possible for you to link this particular essay into the
                XTalk archives?

                Thank you,

                Brian Trafford
                Calgary, AB, Canada
              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                ... It s now at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/files/Paul%27sDyingFormula.pdf Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 13, 2003
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                  Brian Trafford wrote:

                  > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                  > <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
                  > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/files/Paul27sDyingFor
                  > mula.pdf
                  >
                  > Hi Jeffrey
                  >
                  > Would it be possible for you to link this particular essay into the
                  > XTalk archives?
                  >

                  It's now at:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/files/Paul%27sDyingFormula.pdf

                  Jeffrey

                  --

                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                  Chicago, IL 60626

                  jgibson000@...



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