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Re: [XTalk] Re: Jesus rescued by Josephus?

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  • Karel Hanhart
    ... From: Geoff Hudson To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 5:14 PM Subject: RE: [XTalk] Re: Jesus
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 21, 2003
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Geoff Hudson <geoff.hudson@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 5:14 PM
      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Re: Jesus rescued by Josephus?


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Emmanuelle Main [mailto:emmanuellemain@...]
      Sent: 02 August 2003 12:58
      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Jesus rescued by Josephus?

      Karel Hanhart wrote:

      > According to Krijbolder, chances that the parallels
      > hail from different
      > sources are reduced to nil, as if one were
      > theorizing on the existence of "a
      > second earth with the tower of Pisa standing
      > straight".

      In a paper published in 1994 (in hebrew), Tal Ilan
      surveyed a group of 1986 men bearing 397 names and by
      this means, she has shown which names were most
      popular during Second Temple period. She pointed up a
      group of 9 names, each of us borne by more than 40
      people : Mattathias, Hananiah, Yonathan, Yehoshua
      (Jesus), Yohanan, Eleazar, Yehuda, Joseph and Shimon.
      888 people bore these names, that means that 44.7 % of
      the male population used 2.3% of the names at
      disposal.
      Joseph is the most popular name just after Simon :
      Simon was borne by 173 people and Joseph by 150.
      Yehoshua (Jesus) appears at the sixth place whith 71
      men bearing this name.

      In other words, such similarities as men bearing the
      same name "Joseph" - a very common name -, as
      crucifixion - a very common death penalty in those
      times - and taking the bodies from the cross - a
      necessity imposed by the Jewish Law -, such
      similarities are barely significant of the same story
      embodied in different accounts.

      Sincerely yours

      Emmanuelle Main
      Visiting Scholar
      Wolfson College
      Oxford

      Geoff Hudson replied:

      But what about Karel's statement:
      "Moreover, there is a remarkable parallel between the names of the two
      Josephs. One is Josephus'Aramaic name, Joseph bar Mathea, the other Joseph
      Arimathea."

      The two names together would not be so common.

      Karel's response:

      My curiosity concerning Joseph's identity is the fact that Mark's midrash on
      LXX Isa 22,16 in 15, 46 requires looking for a person whose behavior is
      similar to Sebna (hence condemned by the prophet Isaiah).

      To put this remark in context, I had written:
      My interpretation is rather that Luke in his arresting opening story in Acts
      1 re. an 'election' of someone to REPLACE Judas, declares that the high
      priest Matthias should be regarded as the 'Judas' of the apostolic period
      after the crucifixion. Under his regime it appears the persecution of the
      ecclesia took place (Acts 12)....Luke was not 'recording' history like a
      modern day interviewer, as you well know...If indeed ..Joseph bar Matthias -
      who ALSO (Gr. kai) expected the kingdom of God (cmp Acts 1,6) stands for
      Josephus in Mark 15,43, the enigmatic text of Acts 1,23 re. Joseph, would
      ...make perfect sense. Josephus was a general in the war of liberation or in
      the rebellion, if you will. Mark calls this Joseph ambiguously a 'plotter'
      (- the Gr bouleutes has the double meaning here of councilor and plotter-).
      ...

      In the eyes of Mark's Roman persecuted community, Joseph bar Matthias, alias
      Flavius Josephus, in favor with the emperor and residing in luxury in Rome,
      could well be considered to be the very opposite of Peter (last named in
      the gospel, 16,7). Had not Simon Peter lost his life under Nero? In the
      structure of the epilogue Joseph bar Mathea is first named in Mark's
      epilogue (15,43). It cannot be more than a hypothesis. But if Josephus'
      father was indeed the Matthias. - under whose high priestly reign the mother
      ecclesia had been bitterly persecuted (12,1) -, Josephus' near absolute
      silence on the rapid expansion of the apostolic movement in the period of
      30 - 70 CE is readily explained. He WANTED to ignore it and put it to rest.

      cordially,

      Karel

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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