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Crucifixion/Resurrection Dated

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Here s an noteworthy article for our amusement: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html Two Romanian astronomers, Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu Oproiu,
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 9, 2003
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      Here's an 'noteworthy' article for our amusement:

      http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html

      Two Romanian astronomers, "Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu
      Oproiu, . . . say Jesus died at 3pm on Friday, April
      3, 33 AD, and rose again at 4am on Sunday, April 5."

      Take their views with a grain of salt since they date
      the crucifixion/resurrection to the year 33 by noting
      that Jesus died at the time of a full moon (of course
      -- it was Passover!) and that there was a solar
      eclipse in 33 (perhaps so -- but not possible during a
      full moon, so their logic immediately fails).

      How professional can such astronomers be? (Besides,
      hasn't this sort of thing already been suggested and
      rejected for the same reason?)

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
      447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
      Yangsandong 411
      South Korea

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    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... They didn t do what Hoehner already did and better. If you take John s chronology, then 30, 33, and 36 are viable years (for some reason, Mircea and Oproiu
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 10, 2003
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        At 01:06 AM 10/9/03 -0700, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
        >Here's an 'noteworthy' article for our amusement:
        >
        >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html
        >
        >Two Romanian astronomers, "Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu
        >Oproiu, . . . say Jesus died at 3pm on Friday, April
        >3, 33 AD, and rose again at 4am on Sunday, April 5."
        >
        >Take their views with a grain of salt since they date
        >the crucifixion/resurrection to the year 33 by noting
        >that Jesus died at the time of a full moon (of course
        >-- it was Passover!) and that there was a solar
        >eclipse in 33 (perhaps so -- but not possible during a
        >full moon, so their logic immediately fails).
        >
        >How professional can such astronomers be? (Besides,
        >hasn't this sort of thing already been suggested and
        >rejected for the same reason?)

        They didn't do what Hoehner already did and better.
        If you take John's chronology, then 30, 33, and 36
        are viable years (for some reason, Mircea and
        Oproiu didn't extend to 36).

        There usually is one total solar eclipse somewhere on
        the globe a year, but many are over an ocean or other
        non-inhabited area. For example, the next total eclipse
        will occur on November 23, 2003, but you have to be in
        Antarctica to appreciate it first hand.

        There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
        visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
        link to the map:

        http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif.

        A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
        visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29. Here
        is a map:

        http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-2.gif

        Stephen Carlson
        --
        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
        Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
        "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
      • Liz Fried
        I haven t been following this thread, so forgive me if someone already mentioned it, but Leo Depuydt has an interesting article dating Jesus ministry
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 10, 2003
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          I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if someone
          already mentioned it, but Leo Depuydt has an interesting article
          dating Jesus' ministry (beginning and end). He dates it to one
          year 29-30. The article is in JAOS 122 2002.
          Liz Fried
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Stephen C. Carlson [mailto:scarlson@...]
          Sent: Fri, October 10, 2003 3:25 AM
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Crucifixion/Resurrection Dated


          At 01:06 AM 10/9/03 -0700, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
          >Here's an 'noteworthy' article for our amusement:
          >
          >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html
          >
          >Two Romanian astronomers, "Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu
          >Oproiu, . . . say Jesus died at 3pm on Friday, April
          >3, 33 AD, and rose again at 4am on Sunday, April 5."
          >
          >Take their views with a grain of salt since they date
          >the crucifixion/resurrection to the year 33 by noting
          >that Jesus died at the time of a full moon (of course
          >-- it was Passover!) and that there was a solar
          >eclipse in 33 (perhaps so -- but not possible during a
          >full moon, so their logic immediately fails).
          >
          >How professional can such astronomers be? (Besides,
          >hasn't this sort of thing already been suggested and
          >rejected for the same reason?)

          They didn't do what Hoehner already did and better.
          If you take John's chronology, then 30, 33, and 36
          are viable years (for some reason, Mircea and
          Oproiu didn't extend to 36).

          There usually is one total solar eclipse somewhere on
          the globe a year, but many are over an ocean or other
          non-inhabited area. For example, the next total eclipse
          will occur on November 23, 2003, but you have to be in
          Antarctica to appreciate it first hand.

          There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
          visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
          link to the map:

          http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif.

          A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
          visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29. Here
          is a map:

          http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-2.gif

          Stephen Carlson
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
          "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Karel Hanhart
          ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Crosstalk2 Cc: Kata Markon ; Synoptic-L
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 10, 2003
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
            To: Crosstalk2 <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
            Cc: Kata Markon <gmark@...>; Synoptic-L
            <Synoptic-L@...>
            Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:43 PM
            Subject: [XTalk] ANQRWPOI in the Gospel of Mark


            > What if anything is there in Mark's Gospel that might
            > support the idea that for Mark the term ANQRWPOI is a reference to, or
            > a cipher for, or in some way synonymous with, the Jewish leaders who,
            > according to Mark, oppose Jesus?

            > jgibson000@...

            This important question is a difficult one to answer. Jeffrey's
            startingpoint is, - rightly I think -, Peter's disdain for a suffering
            Messiah.
            I believe we can be more precise. Peter's thinking regards 'ta twn
            anthrwpwn' which stands in immediate contrast to 'ho huios tou anthrwpou',
            the word 'anthrwpos' creating the parallel. The 'huios tou anthrwopou'
            (note
            the arresting article: the 'son of THE man) apparently does NOT think 'ta
            twn anthrwpwn'.
            Peter is unwilling to accept the inevitable, that the 'huios tou
            anthrwpou' MUST suffer. This 'dei' (must) is paradoxical. For Peter's
            reaction is a rational, human one, hence 'TA TWN ANTHRWPWN'. The saying that
            the Godsent eschatological 'huios TOU ANTHRWPOU' (the Human One) must
            suffer, die and rise is therefore self-contradictory. As Carlson underlined,
            "for humans it is impossible". Yet this suffering and death is within the
            council
            of God and therefore the predictions end with an humanly impossible ",,,and
            after three days rise again".
            So Jeffrey's question is intimately related to this enigmatic
            eschatological 'Human One' (Son of Man) in the Gospel.
            In the term 'ho huios tou anthrwpou' two biblical concepts are combined.
            (a) The strange article in 'the son of THE
            man' refers to Adam before the fall in the Genesis story. Adam is named in
            the LXX 'ho anthrwpos', untill the Fall.After ther Fall the name Adam
            appears
            (Joel Marcus). (b) In the Gospel the expression 'ho huios tou anthrwpou'
            clearly refers to Dan 7,13. Note f.i. Jesus' confession before Caiaphas in
            Mk 14 and the 'desolating sacrilege' in 13,14.

            In Daniel the 'bar nasj' is a collective term, refering (a) to a
            Messianic.redeemer 'like Adam' , a Human One, to whom all dominion will be
            given in the near future and (b) the 'saints of the Most High' who will
            share in this dominion. Thus in the passion predictions Jesus does not say
            "I" must suffer but the "Human One" must suffer. Mark rewrote a Passover
            Haggadah, a tragic/victorious story, in which key events in Israel's history
            of the past four decades, including persecution of the apostles, mission
            among the Gentiles and the fall of Jerusalem -, are referred to in light of
            the ministry of the Baptist and of the ministry and passion of Messiah
            Jesus. Mark chose the form of a Greek national tragedy, but its content is a
            Judean pass-over narrative. In Daniel 7 the God sent Messiah, the 'Human
            One', is promised in spite of the four worldpowers that like ferocious
            creatures dominated and at times persecuted the people: Egypt,
            Babylon/Persia, burgeoning Rome and Hellenic Syria. The
            Maccabean victory greatly enhanced this pre-Maccabean prophecy with its
            parousia expectation of justice and glory. This apocalyptic prophecy was
            still much alive as Judean apocalyptic literature demonstrates. Mark 8,38
            testifies that the Jesus of history himself related his ministrry to the
            coming of the Human One. In Dan 7,13ff this 'Human One', of course, does not
            suffer.The dominion, the power and the glory will be given this 'Human One'
            who comes with the clouds. In this seminal messianic vision the burning hope
            for the appeaance of a Godsent, eschatological 'last Adam' is awakened
            Now Mark is the first post-70 Christian Judean who introduced the
            theologoumenon of a SUFFERING last Adam. He was confronted with the
            breakdown of the imminent parousia expectation. It must be remembered that
            religion and national political hopes were much more intertwined than is the
            case in modern nations of the West.
            Thus Gibson's suggestion may be narrowed down within the framework of Mark's
            Pass-over Haggadah . Mark had a series of highpriestsn in mind, such as
            Caiaphas and Matthias, high priest under Herod Agrippa (Acts 12!) who were
            thinking 'ta twn anthrwpwn' in that .they had
            condemned Jesus and persecuted the apostles and thus in Mark's mind had
            brought doom on the entire nation.
            The triple passion prediction concerning the Human One is Mark's
            christological theme, as is widely ackowledged (8,31; 9.31; 10,33f). It
            forms the plot of the haggadah. The passion story later unfolds exactly as
            predicted by Jesus, along the lines of condemnation,.mocking, spitting,
            flogging and 'handing over' to the nations (10,33), Now the plural
            'highpriests' stands out as well as the 'handing over' to the 'nations'
            (!).The plot does not only refer to the Messiah, but to his people as well
            during the four decades. The apostles too will drink the cup, they must know
            that 'no stone will be left on the other'. They should understand that not
            only the 5000 were fed (Israel), but also the 4000 (the nations).The
            Haggadah is concentrated on the last passion week told as one terse
            messianic PASS-OVER story, offfering a theodicy of the 'why' of the
            crucifixion, the tremple's destruction and the new exile.
            The key to the 'must' of the suffering last Adam is found in the 'mystery'
            Rom 11,25, in the letter Paul sent to Rome. Mark had studied it there and
            referred to it in 4,10-12. The 'hardening of a part of Israel (the
            highpriests and themple authorities, was necessary and the Huiman One must
            suffer (dei), sothat the Gentiles may 'come in' . It is this theodicy,
            adapted from Paul, that Mark as the first Christian Judean put forward to
            explain the tragedy of the destruction of the Temple and the new Exile.
            Hence the promise ny the angel, "he will go before you in the Galil
            ha-goyim'.
            At the time of the crucifixion, there was only one highpriest , Caiaphas,
            whom Mark does NOT mention by name. So why the plural? Mark clearly and
            repeatedly states that highpriests (plural) were responsible. Thus
            Jeffrey's toying with 'temple authorities' appears to meet Mark's
            intentions. (As I see it, the highpriets belonging to the 'house of Annas',
            such as Caiaphas and Matthias under Herod Agrippa (Acts 12!) were
            historically reponsible for the persecution of Jesus' and his movement).
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 10, 2003
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              Stephen C. Carlson wrote:

              <There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
              visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
              link to the map:

              http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif

              A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
              visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29.
              Here is a map:

              http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-2.gif>

              Thanks for these links. I'm ever more impressed by
              what can be found on the internet.

              Jeffery Hodges

              =====
              Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
              Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
              447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
              Yangsandong 411
              South Korea

              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
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            • Steve Black
              Why are we assuming that this says anything about the date of the crucifixion? Is it not possible that the memory of an eclipse was conflated later with the
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 10, 2003
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                Why are we assuming that this says anything about the date of the
                crucifixion?
                Is it not possible that the memory of an eclipse was conflated later
                with the story of the crucifixion?

                Steve Black
                Vancouver School of Theology
                Vancouver, BC
                Canada
                ---
                Heretics have all the fun, that is until they get burnt at the stake...


                On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 05:21 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                > Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
                >
                > <There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
                > visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
                > link to the map:
                >
                > http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif
                >
                > A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
                > visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29.
                > Here is a map:
                >
                > http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-
                > 2.gif>
                >
                > Thanks for these links. I'm ever more impressed by
                > what can be found on the internet.
                >
                > Jeffery Hodges
                >
              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Steve Black wrote:
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 10, 2003
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                  Steve Black wrote:

                  <Why are we assuming that this says anything about the
                  date of the crucifixion? Is it not possible that the
                  memory of an eclipse was conflated later with the
                  story of the crucifixion?>

                  I can't speak for the others, but this was not my
                  assumption. Rather, I was noting some of the flaws in
                  using an eclipse to date the crucifixion since a solar
                  eclipse cannot, ever, occur during Passover.

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  =====
                  Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
                  Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                  447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
                  Yangsandong 411
                  South Korea

                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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                • bobkaster
                  Hello Steve, I remembered an old reference to an eclipse when Jesus died not being possible. Julius Africanus (A.D. 221) cited Thallus (A.D. 52
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 11, 2003
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                    Hello Steve,
                    I remembered an old reference to an eclipse when Jesus died not being
                    possible. Julius Africanus (A.D. 221) cited Thallus' (A.D. 52
                    non-Christian) explanation of the darkness as being caused by an
                    eclipse. He argued that an eclipse is not possible during a full
                    moon, and Passover always occurs during a full moon.


                    http://www.synaxis.org/ecf/volume06/ECF06IIITHE_EXTANT_FRAGMENTS_OF_THE_F.htm

                    XVIII.(8) On the Circumstances connected with our Saviour's Passion
                    and His Life-giving Resurrection.

                    On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the
                    rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other
                    districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book
                    of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of
                    the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day
                    according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour fails on the day
                    before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when
                    the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time
                    but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last
                    of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be
                    supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the
                    sun?

                    Bob Kaster,
                    White Lake, MI

                    --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Black <sdblack@t...> wrote:
                    > Why are we assuming that this says anything about the date of the
                    > crucifixion?
                    > Is it not possible that the memory of an eclipse was conflated later
                    > with the story of the crucifixion?
                    >
                    > Steve Black
                    > Vancouver School of Theology
                    > Vancouver, BC
                    > Canada
                    > ---
                    > Heretics have all the fun, that is until they get burnt at the stake...
                    >
                    >
                    > On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 05:21 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
                    >
                    > > Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
                    > >
                    > > <There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
                    > > visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
                    > > link to the map:
                    > >
                    > >
                    http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif
                    > >
                    > > A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
                    > > visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29.
                    > > Here is a map:
                    > >
                    > > http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-
                    > > 2.gif>
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for these links. I'm ever more impressed by
                    > > what can be found on the internet.
                    > >
                    > > Jeffery Hodges
                    > >
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