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Re: [XTalk] ANQRWPOI in the Gospel of Mark

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Rbsads@aol.com wrote: You mean Jeffrey Gibson, not me. Jeffery Hodges ===== Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 3 2:44 PM
      Rbsads@... wrote:

      <Dear Jeffery>

      You mean "Jeffrey" Gibson, not me.

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
      447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
      Yangsandong 411
      South Korea

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    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Here s an noteworthy article for our amusement: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html Two Romanian astronomers, Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu Oproiu,
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 9 1:06 AM
        Here's an 'noteworthy' article for our amusement:

        http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html

        Two Romanian astronomers, "Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu
        Oproiu, . . . say Jesus died at 3pm on Friday, April
        3, 33 AD, and rose again at 4am on Sunday, April 5."

        Take their views with a grain of salt since they date
        the crucifixion/resurrection to the year 33 by noting
        that Jesus died at the time of a full moon (of course
        -- it was Passover!) and that there was a solar
        eclipse in 33 (perhaps so -- but not possible during a
        full moon, so their logic immediately fails).

        How professional can such astronomers be? (Besides,
        hasn't this sort of thing already been suggested and
        rejected for the same reason?)

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

        __________________________________
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      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... They didn t do what Hoehner already did and better. If you take John s chronology, then 30, 33, and 36 are viable years (for some reason, Mircea and Oproiu
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 10 12:25 AM
          At 01:06 AM 10/9/03 -0700, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
          >Here's an 'noteworthy' article for our amusement:
          >
          >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html
          >
          >Two Romanian astronomers, "Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu
          >Oproiu, . . . say Jesus died at 3pm on Friday, April
          >3, 33 AD, and rose again at 4am on Sunday, April 5."
          >
          >Take their views with a grain of salt since they date
          >the crucifixion/resurrection to the year 33 by noting
          >that Jesus died at the time of a full moon (of course
          >-- it was Passover!) and that there was a solar
          >eclipse in 33 (perhaps so -- but not possible during a
          >full moon, so their logic immediately fails).
          >
          >How professional can such astronomers be? (Besides,
          >hasn't this sort of thing already been suggested and
          >rejected for the same reason?)

          They didn't do what Hoehner already did and better.
          If you take John's chronology, then 30, 33, and 36
          are viable years (for some reason, Mircea and
          Oproiu didn't extend to 36).

          There usually is one total solar eclipse somewhere on
          the globe a year, but many are over an ocean or other
          non-inhabited area. For example, the next total eclipse
          will occur on November 23, 2003, but you have to be in
          Antarctica to appreciate it first hand.

          There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
          visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
          link to the map:

          http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif.

          A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
          visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29. Here
          is a map:

          http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-2.gif

          Stephen Carlson
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
          "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
        • Liz Fried
          I haven t been following this thread, so forgive me if someone already mentioned it, but Leo Depuydt has an interesting article dating Jesus ministry
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 10 6:33 AM
            I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if someone
            already mentioned it, but Leo Depuydt has an interesting article
            dating Jesus' ministry (beginning and end). He dates it to one
            year 29-30. The article is in JAOS 122 2002.
            Liz Fried
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Stephen C. Carlson [mailto:scarlson@...]
            Sent: Fri, October 10, 2003 3:25 AM
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] Crucifixion/Resurrection Dated


            At 01:06 AM 10/9/03 -0700, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
            >Here's an 'noteworthy' article for our amusement:
            >
            >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_778195.html
            >
            >Two Romanian astronomers, "Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu
            >Oproiu, . . . say Jesus died at 3pm on Friday, April
            >3, 33 AD, and rose again at 4am on Sunday, April 5."
            >
            >Take their views with a grain of salt since they date
            >the crucifixion/resurrection to the year 33 by noting
            >that Jesus died at the time of a full moon (of course
            >-- it was Passover!) and that there was a solar
            >eclipse in 33 (perhaps so -- but not possible during a
            >full moon, so their logic immediately fails).
            >
            >How professional can such astronomers be? (Besides,
            >hasn't this sort of thing already been suggested and
            >rejected for the same reason?)

            They didn't do what Hoehner already did and better.
            If you take John's chronology, then 30, 33, and 36
            are viable years (for some reason, Mircea and
            Oproiu didn't extend to 36).

            There usually is one total solar eclipse somewhere on
            the globe a year, but many are over an ocean or other
            non-inhabited area. For example, the next total eclipse
            will occur on November 23, 2003, but you have to be in
            Antarctica to appreciate it first hand.

            There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
            visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
            link to the map:

            http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif.

            A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
            visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29. Here
            is a map:

            http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-2.gif

            Stephen Carlson
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
            Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Karel Hanhart
            ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Crosstalk2 Cc: Kata Markon ; Synoptic-L
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 10 8:50 AM
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
              To: Crosstalk2 <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              Cc: Kata Markon <gmark@...>; Synoptic-L
              <Synoptic-L@...>
              Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:43 PM
              Subject: [XTalk] ANQRWPOI in the Gospel of Mark


              > What if anything is there in Mark's Gospel that might
              > support the idea that for Mark the term ANQRWPOI is a reference to, or
              > a cipher for, or in some way synonymous with, the Jewish leaders who,
              > according to Mark, oppose Jesus?

              > jgibson000@...

              This important question is a difficult one to answer. Jeffrey's
              startingpoint is, - rightly I think -, Peter's disdain for a suffering
              Messiah.
              I believe we can be more precise. Peter's thinking regards 'ta twn
              anthrwpwn' which stands in immediate contrast to 'ho huios tou anthrwpou',
              the word 'anthrwpos' creating the parallel. The 'huios tou anthrwopou'
              (note
              the arresting article: the 'son of THE man) apparently does NOT think 'ta
              twn anthrwpwn'.
              Peter is unwilling to accept the inevitable, that the 'huios tou
              anthrwpou' MUST suffer. This 'dei' (must) is paradoxical. For Peter's
              reaction is a rational, human one, hence 'TA TWN ANTHRWPWN'. The saying that
              the Godsent eschatological 'huios TOU ANTHRWPOU' (the Human One) must
              suffer, die and rise is therefore self-contradictory. As Carlson underlined,
              "for humans it is impossible". Yet this suffering and death is within the
              council
              of God and therefore the predictions end with an humanly impossible ",,,and
              after three days rise again".
              So Jeffrey's question is intimately related to this enigmatic
              eschatological 'Human One' (Son of Man) in the Gospel.
              In the term 'ho huios tou anthrwpou' two biblical concepts are combined.
              (a) The strange article in 'the son of THE
              man' refers to Adam before the fall in the Genesis story. Adam is named in
              the LXX 'ho anthrwpos', untill the Fall.After ther Fall the name Adam
              appears
              (Joel Marcus). (b) In the Gospel the expression 'ho huios tou anthrwpou'
              clearly refers to Dan 7,13. Note f.i. Jesus' confession before Caiaphas in
              Mk 14 and the 'desolating sacrilege' in 13,14.

              In Daniel the 'bar nasj' is a collective term, refering (a) to a
              Messianic.redeemer 'like Adam' , a Human One, to whom all dominion will be
              given in the near future and (b) the 'saints of the Most High' who will
              share in this dominion. Thus in the passion predictions Jesus does not say
              "I" must suffer but the "Human One" must suffer. Mark rewrote a Passover
              Haggadah, a tragic/victorious story, in which key events in Israel's history
              of the past four decades, including persecution of the apostles, mission
              among the Gentiles and the fall of Jerusalem -, are referred to in light of
              the ministry of the Baptist and of the ministry and passion of Messiah
              Jesus. Mark chose the form of a Greek national tragedy, but its content is a
              Judean pass-over narrative. In Daniel 7 the God sent Messiah, the 'Human
              One', is promised in spite of the four worldpowers that like ferocious
              creatures dominated and at times persecuted the people: Egypt,
              Babylon/Persia, burgeoning Rome and Hellenic Syria. The
              Maccabean victory greatly enhanced this pre-Maccabean prophecy with its
              parousia expectation of justice and glory. This apocalyptic prophecy was
              still much alive as Judean apocalyptic literature demonstrates. Mark 8,38
              testifies that the Jesus of history himself related his ministrry to the
              coming of the Human One. In Dan 7,13ff this 'Human One', of course, does not
              suffer.The dominion, the power and the glory will be given this 'Human One'
              who comes with the clouds. In this seminal messianic vision the burning hope
              for the appeaance of a Godsent, eschatological 'last Adam' is awakened
              Now Mark is the first post-70 Christian Judean who introduced the
              theologoumenon of a SUFFERING last Adam. He was confronted with the
              breakdown of the imminent parousia expectation. It must be remembered that
              religion and national political hopes were much more intertwined than is the
              case in modern nations of the West.
              Thus Gibson's suggestion may be narrowed down within the framework of Mark's
              Pass-over Haggadah . Mark had a series of highpriestsn in mind, such as
              Caiaphas and Matthias, high priest under Herod Agrippa (Acts 12!) who were
              thinking 'ta twn anthrwpwn' in that .they had
              condemned Jesus and persecuted the apostles and thus in Mark's mind had
              brought doom on the entire nation.
              The triple passion prediction concerning the Human One is Mark's
              christological theme, as is widely ackowledged (8,31; 9.31; 10,33f). It
              forms the plot of the haggadah. The passion story later unfolds exactly as
              predicted by Jesus, along the lines of condemnation,.mocking, spitting,
              flogging and 'handing over' to the nations (10,33), Now the plural
              'highpriests' stands out as well as the 'handing over' to the 'nations'
              (!).The plot does not only refer to the Messiah, but to his people as well
              during the four decades. The apostles too will drink the cup, they must know
              that 'no stone will be left on the other'. They should understand that not
              only the 5000 were fed (Israel), but also the 4000 (the nations).The
              Haggadah is concentrated on the last passion week told as one terse
              messianic PASS-OVER story, offfering a theodicy of the 'why' of the
              crucifixion, the tremple's destruction and the new exile.
              The key to the 'must' of the suffering last Adam is found in the 'mystery'
              Rom 11,25, in the letter Paul sent to Rome. Mark had studied it there and
              referred to it in 4,10-12. The 'hardening of a part of Israel (the
              highpriests and themple authorities, was necessary and the Huiman One must
              suffer (dei), sothat the Gentiles may 'come in' . It is this theodicy,
              adapted from Paul, that Mark as the first Christian Judean put forward to
              explain the tragedy of the destruction of the Temple and the new Exile.
              Hence the promise ny the angel, "he will go before you in the Galil
              ha-goyim'.
              At the time of the crucifixion, there was only one highpriest , Caiaphas,
              whom Mark does NOT mention by name. So why the plural? Mark clearly and
              repeatedly states that highpriests (plural) were responsible. Thus
              Jeffrey's toying with 'temple authorities' appears to meet Mark's
              intentions. (As I see it, the highpriets belonging to the 'house of Annas',
              such as Caiaphas and Matthias under Herod Agrippa (Acts 12!) were
              historically reponsible for the persecution of Jesus' and his movement).
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 10 5:21 PM
                Stephen C. Carlson wrote:

                <There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
                visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
                link to the map:

                http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif

                A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
                visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29.
                Here is a map:

                http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-2.gif>

                Thanks for these links. I'm ever more impressed by
                what can be found on the internet.

                Jeffery Hodges

                =====
                Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
                Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
                Yangsandong 411
                South Korea

                __________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
                http://shopping.yahoo.com
              • Steve Black
                Why are we assuming that this says anything about the date of the crucifixion? Is it not possible that the memory of an eclipse was conflated later with the
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 10 5:32 PM
                  Why are we assuming that this says anything about the date of the
                  crucifixion?
                  Is it not possible that the memory of an eclipse was conflated later
                  with the story of the crucifixion?

                  Steve Black
                  Vancouver School of Theology
                  Vancouver, BC
                  Canada
                  ---
                  Heretics have all the fun, that is until they get burnt at the stake...


                  On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 05:21 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                  > Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
                  >
                  > <There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
                  > visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
                  > link to the map:
                  >
                  > http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif
                  >
                  > A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
                  > visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29.
                  > Here is a map:
                  >
                  > http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-
                  > 2.gif>
                  >
                  > Thanks for these links. I'm ever more impressed by
                  > what can be found on the internet.
                  >
                  > Jeffery Hodges
                  >
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Steve Black wrote:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 10 5:38 PM
                    Steve Black wrote:

                    <Why are we assuming that this says anything about the
                    date of the crucifixion? Is it not possible that the
                    memory of an eclipse was conflated later with the
                    story of the crucifixion?>

                    I can't speak for the others, but this was not my
                    assumption. Rather, I was noting some of the flaws in
                    using an eclipse to date the crucifixion since a solar
                    eclipse cannot, ever, occur during Passover.

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    =====
                    Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
                    Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                    447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
                    Yangsandong 411
                    South Korea

                    __________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
                    http://shopping.yahoo.com
                  • bobkaster
                    Hello Steve, I remembered an old reference to an eclipse when Jesus died not being possible. Julius Africanus (A.D. 221) cited Thallus (A.D. 52
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 11 6:08 PM
                      Hello Steve,
                      I remembered an old reference to an eclipse when Jesus died not being
                      possible. Julius Africanus (A.D. 221) cited Thallus' (A.D. 52
                      non-Christian) explanation of the darkness as being caused by an
                      eclipse. He argued that an eclipse is not possible during a full
                      moon, and Passover always occurs during a full moon.


                      http://www.synaxis.org/ecf/volume06/ECF06IIITHE_EXTANT_FRAGMENTS_OF_THE_F.htm

                      XVIII.(8) On the Circumstances connected with our Saviour's Passion
                      and His Life-giving Resurrection.

                      On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the
                      rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other
                      districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book
                      of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of
                      the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day
                      according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour fails on the day
                      before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when
                      the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time
                      but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last
                      of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be
                      supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the
                      sun?

                      Bob Kaster,
                      White Lake, MI

                      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Black <sdblack@t...> wrote:
                      > Why are we assuming that this says anything about the date of the
                      > crucifixion?
                      > Is it not possible that the memory of an eclipse was conflated later
                      > with the story of the crucifixion?
                      >
                      > Steve Black
                      > Vancouver School of Theology
                      > Vancouver, BC
                      > Canada
                      > ---
                      > Heretics have all the fun, that is until they get burnt at the stake...
                      >
                      >
                      > On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 05:21 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
                      >
                      > > Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
                      > >
                      > > <There was a total eclipe on March 19, 33, but it was
                      > > visible only in the southern Indian ocean. Here's a
                      > > link to the map:
                      > >
                      > >
                      http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0033Mar19T.gif
                      > >
                      > > A total solar eclipse visible in Syria (and a partial
                      > > visible in Jerusalem) occurred on November 24, 29.
                      > > Here is a map:
                      > >
                      > > http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhistory/SEplot/SE0029Nov24T-
                      > > 2.gif>
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for these links. I'm ever more impressed by
                      > > what can be found on the internet.
                      > >
                      > > Jeffery Hodges
                      > >
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